life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

There was a documentary on TV a while ago about people that have sleep sex. It is a form of sleep walking. Has he ever done it with you?

Doesn't sound like rape to me either.

She has no recollection of events leading up to the 'event' - so who is to say she didn't consent? (mumble hmm, yes, more... whatever).

When they both woke up/came to - realised what was happening he stopped & left - he was probably freaked out it wasn't the bed he thought it was.

Bit of a mistake all around - no harm done (sorry OP, possibly not quite what you wanted to hear)... till 14 years later she decides to call it rape.

It's an insult to women who have been raped.

Yes, men can get erections while asleep, it seems odd to be of the opinion that he couldn't achieve one while intoxicated

DP once woke up (after a night of heavy drinking by both of us) asking why there was a used condom in the bin

My memory: Great sex the night before

His memory: He slept

Bastard

Agree with Dittany

I think the use of the word rape is potentially unhelpful. But Dittany rape is a criminal offence therefore you have to define it by the actions and state of mind of the perpetrator not the victim. This requires a physical act - sexual intercourse without consent and a criminal state of mind (ie not knowing that the woman did not consent or not having a reasonable belief that the woman consented - whatever the correct legal definition is). Calling someone a rapist without both of these being present is slander.

This does not belittle the trauma potentially suffered by the woman. But recognising that trauma should not automatically criminalise the man.

I do think that the information given in this situation sounds much more like a mistake than a malicious act: the bloke is drunk, he gets out of a bed that he is sharing with his girlfriend, has a piss and (being drunk and in a strange house) then gets into the wrong bed and mistakes the woman who is in it for his GF who he might reasonably expect to welcome a sexual advance (and if she didn't, to tell him to stop). The fact that he stopped the minute he discovered his mistake counts in his favour.
As to the fact that he didn't say anything the next day, he may well have been embarrassed and ashamed of himself and not wanted to say anything in case he made it worse.
This doesn't mean it wasn't an upsetting experience for the woman it happened to. But (again) he stopped and fled the minute she protested. A predatory man would have at least tried to persuade her to carry on - or indeed lied about it when challenged and said he couldn't remember, or that it didn;t happen.

Have been reading through all you messages again today and have a few comments. Balloonslayer - I cannot for the life of me see where I changed my account of what my friend said. I am new to posting, first timer, and I was not aware that I needed to put every single tiny bit of info in my op. I thought this was a discussion board and if so, new info is added as and when it comes up. People have asked me questions about the situation and I am answering them.
Dittany - Again, I did not put all the info into op as my question was "is this rape"? and was never asked by anyone what happened next. We all went for breakfast the following day to MY DAD'S house and friend came too. DH felt like shit and needed to apologise to her for getting in to her bed. Remember he does not know that he penetrated her at this stage but does remember the kissing. He told her that he was mortified and so sorry for getting into her bed and that he did not have a reasonable explanation for it and she said "let's forget it".

Jooly, thank you for your input and I feel like you are making so much sense. I am now feeling that if she had felt the need to "confront" someone over this why did she not go my dh? You are right to point out that if I talk to her directly it is useless as I was not there and cannot possibly answer for ny dh. I spoke to our mutual friend today as she has been in touch with the friend all along and apparantly she is extremely upset that I ave NOT been in touch with her. She desperately wants to hear his reaction and how it has affected our relationship! is this the normal response does anyone know? I have asked mutual friend not to discuss anything I have said wth her yet but she has offered to do so if necessary. Can't name you all individually but I think most of you seem to be thinking along the same lines as me. Some others, however seem to have lived a very different youth to me and most of my friends and have had very limited/no experiences of sex in a long term relationship

OK I think the definition of this would be rape. However, he might not have intended to do it (probably didn't). But that doesn't stop the effect on her. 'I didn't mean it' is a bit of a feeble excuse after the event. You should be darn sure before you start. As others have pointed out, being drunk doesn't excuse you from crimes like assault or theft so it shouldn't in this case.

I think she needs to talk through it a bit more with her therapist. It's difficult because both people were sleepy/drunk (and it was 15 yrs ago) so what actually happened is shady.

is there a trusted intermediary who could talk to her and advise her that tellings others in this way is unfair? fourteen years is a very long time between then and now, its possible she is heading for some sort of breakdown/depressive episode, and this incident is what she is sort of hanging it on. In all fairness she needs to be advised that its potentially unlawful to make such serious allegations against someone else in the way that she is. its really not fair on anyone concerned.

Surely there has to be intent involved in rape? am I wrong?

Dawntildusk - what a position to be in.

Something similar almost happened to me years ago. Except the friend in question actually got into be with me and DH! He was staying in our house and we had all been drinking. He got up to go to the loo and came into the wrong bedroom. Got into bed on my side and cuddle up to me. We were all naked. DH never woke up. I did. And I knew our friend was not trying to rape me. But I knew the was a strong possibility that he thought he was home with his wife and would possibly try to make love to her not know that it was me. And it sounds like this is exactly what happened to your DH. And I would bet that he started to carress her, got on top, penis JUST enters and he kisses her and then they suddenly both wake up enough to realise what is going on.

So at this stage your DH is aroused and has his penis almost in your friend. If he had continued to enter her, I would consider THAT to be rape. But he didn't. He withdrew immediately he realised what was happening, felt like shit and apologised. And apologised again next morning. And she said forget it.

Buda, I have heard of a few instances of similar events happening. I woke up one night years ago to find a friend of ours peeing in our wardrobe! I know this is noteasily compared to what dh did but I do think that alcohol played a massive part in all this.

Dawntilldusk - I don't want to make light of what has happened but in our situation I did wonder about slipping out of the bed and leaving our friend and DH!!

No - DawntilDusk you are not wrong - there has to be an intent with rape as with most crimes. Dittany you are wrong as to what the legal definition of rape is - it requires more than just lack of consent - it requires an element of knowledge or reckless disregard for the lack of consent. As Brahms says however (and as I said earlier) this does not reduce the potential impact on the woman. But sympathy for the woman does not = criminalising the man.

And actually I think the climbing into the wrong bed thing and drunken fumbling does happen a lot - I recently turfed my cousin out of my bedroom as she tried (in all drunken innocence) to clamber into bed with my DH (soundly asleep). Perhaps it does not get so far as penetration all that often but that is possibly because the person being clambered into bed with is probably more sober - not the case here, it seems.

I may be a total puritan, but I really think if you get so pissed that you do something that out of order, it's your own fault for drinking so much that you are not aware enough to take responsibility for your own actions.

Yes, drink, have a laugh but don't expect to be excused bad behaviour because you're drunk. You CHOSE to get that bladdered.

My thoughts about what probably happened are similar to that of Buda or SGB because of my experiences but Dawn you need to understand that you are posting on a forum where some women have experienced rape and you will provoke strong reactions.

Your fears at the moment seem to be a lot about what will happen to you, your children, your husband, your parents if this comes out. Fair enough, it's a frightening situation but perhaps if you can show love and compassion to this woman who has been your friend for 25 years it will be the best help of all. It sounds like she is going through a tremendously difficult time, a life she can no longer fund, coming off drink/drugs, being alone at a time when she needs to find how to be part of this world as she approaches middle age now that she can longer be a good time young woman.

I see where you are coming from in thinking that, when so much bad and difficult has happened to her, how can a guy's dick slipping a little bit inside her be the overall reason for a breakdown but if you focus on the logic of that thought, I don't think it will help any of you.

Eurostar, as you can see from my original post I had and still have alot of sympathy for my friend. I truly think though that even if she had come to me and told me that she had been raped by another man in the same circumstances I would question her use of the term "rape". She thankfully is not going through this very difficult time in her life on her own, she has regular counselling and has some very good friends who are looking after her. I cannot conceive
the notion of me ever being in a position where I will be able to help her though, even though our friendship was a strong one it can never be that again.

Brahms don't entirely disagree with you and the question of whether or not a rapist had the necessary criminal state of mind is a very difficult one. Perhaps the presence of that much alcohol does indicate the necessary level of recklessness for the criminal state of mind to be proven but I'd take more convincing. It is a criminal act and criminal convictions require "beyond reasonable doubt".

Dawntilldusk - obviously I don't know your friend and you do, after 25 years you should have some idea of what is going on in her head to make her feel the need to deal with this now. To me it feels like she is making a mountain out of a (very tiny) molehill - is there some reason she would want to destroy your relationship or be the centre of attention?

I stand by my stance - it is not rape and it is insulting to women who have been raped that she is now calling the drunken, mistaken, fumble, rape. She was drunk, quite probably made the appropriate (go ahead) noises, both came around enough to know they needed to stop. He felt bad as he'd been the one in the wrong bed, she said it doesn't matter.... and now 14 years later she wants to tell the world he raped her??? Come on, surely if you did feel like that and had been friends for over 15 years, including being your bridesmaid, you'd go to him/them and talk about it, or talk to your councellor etc you would not be telling other people. It really does, to me sound like she is on some attention seeking mission.... and needs to be told that it's not acceptable to put your husband & yourself in this position.

Dittany. Given the description that Dawn.. has outlined abut her DH, good husband, supportive etc. What would you do if it was your partner that was in this situation now?

I am sorry if I have caused upset to anybody on this board, it was unintentional. I am trying to look at this from both sides and as I have never been in this position myself I cannot begin to understand what it feels like. On the other hand it is impossible for anyone else to know what it feels like to be told their husband has raped their friend, that other mutual friends have been told about it and, worse of all, no opportunity to defend the accusation. Sometimes i feel it woul be better for it to go to court so at least my dh would have the chance to give his side of the story but I know this would not solve anything for anyone.without being offensive, chippings comments tend to mirror my own at the moment but maybe that is just my anger at the whole situation coming through.

Dawn, my gut is that this is def not rape. I don't buy for a second the 'i buried it for 14 years' claptrap - she discussed it the morning after. it's horrible and embarassing but it's not rape.

Interesting that she has enquired as to what affect ehr little revelation has had. This is not seeking help, this is attention seeking.

This is a symptom of her breakdown rather than being the cause of it. She has chosed to be a bit of a wastrel with her life and doesn't sound very good at taking responsibility for her actions - this is another evasion of responsibility. She clearly feels bad about this and has someone to pin it on.

You do need to be kind to her, she sounds unwell to me, the fact that she has so freely divulged this to others also is stange, not exactly timely or appropriate.

Be really careful, she sounds like a attention seeking nutter. Interesting that they BOTH give the very same account of the event - he stopped immediately and intent in rape is everything, you don't suddenly find yourself raping someone it is a violent and premeditated attack.

Your poor H - this is a horrible thing to happen to him too as he seems to have done the right thing at the time and now has been very honest with you - he didn't bother to deny it or blame her either which again to me is very telling.

So if two terribly pissed people are making out half asleep and they start fucking and then one wakes up and says no, just because she hasn't said yes out loud before, is that rape????? I don't think so. If you wake up and say no and that person stops, it is not rape it is a drunken mistake. She makes a bloody mockery of real rape victims.

Keep close to your H - I really feel he is the innocent party as you are.