life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

nancydrewworks, my issue with that is why would he have used force if all he intended to do is put the tip of his penis in her for 2 seconds or so? would he not have continued to use force and finish raping her? I am not sure if you have read all my previous posts but your description of someone breaking in to her house and raping her is very different to what I have described. I myself never suggested that she consented in ANY way to what happened to her, she was out of her mind and so was he. There was no intent by him and I doubt there was any coercion by her but the fact that they kissed at one point shows to me that they were both unaware of what was going on at that point. Why would she knowingly kiss a man who was raping her? They were both sub consciously, at one point, partaking. Maybe during this time they were both groaning, who knows? the point is they both realised pretty quickly what was happening and stopped...

Those of you who feel that it was def rape - does the fact that only the tip of his penis was inside her and as soon as he was aware of what we happening, he pulled out, make any difference? To me it does but interested to hear other views.

"Those of you who feel that it was def rape - does the fact that only the tip of his penis was inside her and as soon as he was aware of what we happening, he pulled out, make any difference?"

It's not clear that's what happened. Maybe it was that as soon as she woke up and he realised there was going to be a fuss he pulled out. This is impossible as we will never know what really happened

The op posted that somewhere in the thread which is why I am asking.

How in the name of god do we know for sure how much of his penis he put inside her vagina? He was blind drunk but he remembers these details?

For the record it sounds like rape to me. I am sorry for the OP, but from what you have described in your posts it is rape.

This may have no bearing on what kind of a H or Dad he is but he has some truths to come to terms with himself.

Dittany I don't think she was 'attacked'. I think he got inot the wrong bed and thought he was with his gf. As I posted earlier something similar almost happened to me.

The reason I was asking was that I seem to recall reading earlier in the thread that the op's friend said that it was just the tip. And then he stopped once he was aware of what was happening. It seems to me that if was intent on rape he would have carried on.

Dawntildusk I have read all the thread. I realise that someone breaking onto a house is not the same scenario you describe. I used that example to negate the suggestion that her possible reflexive reactions to the kissing etc could be deemed consent. The woman was asleep, possibly unconcious for fucks sake! I actually feel like I am banging my head on a brick wall here.

Frankly OP you only have your husbands version of how much penis he inserted and for how long. At best he is a chancer who cheated on you at worst he is a predator.

As I've said in law it was rape. What we all think is largely irrelevant.

So she has been both your & dh's friend for 14 yrs since that night, even been your bridesmaid; taken drugs/drink & recently gone through a relationship breakdown and then tells you, his wife - not dh or the police - that your hb raped her all that time ago? And then, through an intermediary, wants to know your reaction; told a number of ppl that dh has raped her but not gone to the police; that she'll stand by you when you leave dh and is now complaining you have been distant with her?!

Agree with Tartyhighheel's assessment, although I would be less sympathetic to her expressions of 'attention-seeking'.

Your options?

Personally, I don't think you can engage with someone who is intent on destroying your lives. She expects you to break up with dh, doesn't she? Any solicitor would tell you not to have contact.

Do wonder, as you say, it would be worth telling her to put up or shut-up? After 14 yrs of friendship I cannot imagine CPS taking this one on. But maybe doing that will just add fuel to the fire? Only you can judge how much damage she is doing by telling other people. But maybe your dh should seek legal advice?

And in response to ppl who she's told, I think you have to say how horrible it is but her version of events is not dh's or your brother's, and how on earth has she stayed both your friends for 14 yrs if that was the truth? That she seems more fixated on your response than dh's and you've deemed it wiser to keep your distance.

Op's post below stating that her friend said it was only the tip:

"I don't think I ever suggested that she consented to having sex did I? My husbands recolletion is only of some kissing and then they both became aware of what was happening after which he left which means that any penetration, if there was any, happened BEFORE the kissing. My friend recollects penetration was for 2 seconds or so and "only the tip" as she put it. I do not feel that that act justifies being called rape. I do, however, acknowledge that she feels violated but agree with some of your posts advising that I should talk to her and help her piece the evenings events together which may make it easier on her rather than leave her with no memory of it at all."

Sorry I don't care how much of his cock was in her. That's not the point.

seems to me this is one of those threads where the man is never going to be seen to be in the right, whether he did anything wrong or not.

i've known my fair share of bastards, but a drunken mistake does not automatically equate rape. we dont know the woman, and we dont know the man.

and im very suspicious of how keen she is to split you up now her life has hit the shit. for all anyone knows she came onto him and has been secretly harbouring feelings for him for years. i'm not saying this is the case btw, just that its always a possiblity...

nancydrewrocks, it was my friend who mentioned the tip of his penis and for how long not my dh. as I have already stated he does not remember penetrating her at all but has not denied it may have happened, all he remembers is the kissing.
Somebody commented on how amazing it was that dh had such good recollection of an event that happened when he was blind drunk. Th truth is he doesn't. Again, as I have said in a previous post he remembers being told the next day that he was carried to bed, he assumes he was looking for the toilet or had gone to the toilet and ended up going to her room, maybe if you read the posts before you attack me it would be more beneficial. The description of the night that I have given here is the result of many hours together going over things and trying to piece them together. The way I put it might sound contrived and clinical but that is because I am stating the facts as I know them. They have been swimming around and around in our heads for the last 2 weeks and I am trying to put them in some orde.

CLimbing in through the window where a woman is sleeping, and starting to have sex with her is rape, because you don't do that by accident. What suggests to me that there is a good chance of this being a genuine mistake is the circumstances of the man getting out of the bed he was sharing with his GF, then getting back into the wrong bed - unless there are notable differences in body shape and size between the two women such as one being 6ft tall and one being tiny, for instance, it's not impossible for a seriously drunk and half-asleep man to make a mistake.

Dawn, I think you should give this friend some space for now. If she demands to know why you won't engage with her about it, explain that you feel out of your depth as you are not directly involved, but don't feel impartial enough to help her with her feelings. It sounds like she has reasonable alternative support.

FWIW, try to remember that the mutual friends she is telling also know your DH- they will not necessarily believe the worst of him without getting his side of the story. Maybe your mutual friend should advise this woman to stop telling other parties her story, as a lot of people who know her might actually see her in a worse light for spreading this, which isn't in her best interest.

right then, im off out for a drink with my rapist, only to tell his family about it in 10 years time so i can get maximum impact and ruin as many lives as possible.

cant believe anyone would take this woman seriously. people crying rape over stupid situations like this do not help genuine victims.

Dawntodusk - be with your husband. Support him fully - do not let this come between you. You know him, you know what he says happened - she says the same as he does, she is choosing to call this rape - she is not describing a situation I would call rape. This situation has the ability to wreck your marriage but only if you let it - don't.

The more this thread continues and the more you update us from your mutual friend etc - the more I am convinced this woman is an attention seeking missile - determined to wreck your marriage - who knows why and to be honest, who cares why.

It is sad that you have been friends for 25 year and it has to come this, but I am with Heated - tell her to put up or shut up.

I also agree with Heated's comment here: And in response to ppl who she's told, I think you have to say how horrible it is but her version of events is not dh's or your brother's, and how on earth has she stayed both your friends for 14 yrs if that was the truth? That she seems more fixated on your response than dh's and you've deemed it wiser to keep your distance.

thanks jooly, your comments make alot of sense. I was looking for a way of letting her know I have not stopped contact forever but need space and time and your post describes it perfectly. unfortunately only one of the friends she has told is a friend of ours (the mutual friend I have been talking about, who is pregnant with her first child at 40 after years of IVF and needs this shit like a hole in the head) the rest we don't know very well but I take your point and will broach it with mutual friend to see if she can talk to her.

Dittany: but in this case it's possible that the man thought the woman in the bed was HIS GIRLFRIEND (who was in bed in a nearby room, the bed he had just got out of in his drunk, half-asleep state), who would either have accepted or rejected his attempts at sex but not been shocked or horrified by them in the way that someone who was not his girlfriend would be.
This is not the same as a bloke saying 'I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing' after climbing in through someone's window or trying to have sex in an environment, time and place where the woman could not have been mistaken for a consenting partner in any way.

Dittany I would say that not alot of blokes would call that abuse. I would think the guy would never live it down with all the slagging he'd get over it from his mates but if a heterosexual male did that to his good mate after a day and night on the beer? sorry but don't think they would be crying rape.

Dittany & Brahms - I think the diff between what happened here and rape is intent. This guy did notgo into that room intending to rape that woman. He did not get into the bed intending to rape her. He got into what he thought was his own bed with his girlfriend and drunkenly kissed her and tried to have sex. As soon as he realised that it was not his girlfriend he woke up properly, apologised and left. He did not continue to try and have sex with her. As I said earlier if he had done THAT would have been rape. This was not rape as there was no intent and sexal intercourse did not take place.

It's a pity your dh didn't tell you about it at the time then it could have been out in the open. When our friend did it as soon as he cuddled into me he realised iwas not his wife and said 'shit I am in the wrong bed'. Next morning I told dh as I thought it was funny and when friend appeared we teased him mercilessly.

I don't suppose you know anyone in the police do you?you could ask off the record if it would be classed as rape.

Fwiw I do think your friend wants to be in centre of a drama with lots of sympathy and attention. As others have said if she really and truly thought she had been raped she woud have surely distanced herself from you both.

why would she have distanced herself?

she could have been feeling that its her fault, that she somehow caused it?
i dont know much about rape/abuse but do know that it often goes hand in hand with guilt,secrecy and denial.

that she is asking after the OP is no suprise either, the OP being the other innocent party here.

shame on the poster earlier who refered to the victim as as bunny boiler.

small wonder so many incidents go unreported.

It's not rape. There is no victim, no crime has been committed. It was a drunken mistake that both parties stopped immediately once they became aware of the error.

Even alleged rapists are innocent until proven guilty, for now anyway.

It seems that we are expected to take every word this women says as verbatim whilst treating everything your DH says as shifty, defensive and deceitful.

OP I think you're showing remarkably generosity towards this 'friend' seeing as she seems intent on wrecking your lives.

I am the poster that siad i thought she was a bunny boiler - this is a crock of shit, cooked up to do the maximum damage - remember this person has had a breakdown too and really she needs a reason for it to happen. It couldn't possibly be a wasted life, caning money, drink and drugs and ending up childless and single - oh no, it must the the terriblt raoe that she forgot all about for a whole 14 years. The rapist with whom she has been friends with. It's all a lot of bollocks and makes a mockery of women who have really been raoed.

Like I said too I have been in this situation and it was not rape, it was a silly drunken mistake. Rape is about intent not just about how far a man's cock enters a body. Agreement can be implicit as well as explicit - I do not expect that we all say outloud 'yes' everytime we make love - agreement can be in action as well as word and if someone is going along with something and then objects at a point and the other stops immediately - it is not rape.

The is not a victim of anything other than mental illness - she is not a rape victim she's a fucking nutter trying to attract attention.

Makes me fucking sick that any man who makes what i think is an honest mistake has to be bastard and has to be to blame - it is not always so.