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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

life turned upside down

632 replies

dawntildusk · 04/03/2010 22:15

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

OP posts:
McBitchy · 09/03/2010 00:18

yes maybe if both are hazy

ImSoNotTelling · 09/03/2010 11:12

Um I feel I should point out that the woman is not "hazy" on this. She says she has been raped.

I would say that people who feel they have been raped should feel that they are able to go to the police.

Of course in real life people understand how the law works and thus often don't go to the police.

Surely as a general point though women who consider themselves to be sexually assaulted should be able to go to the police. And then up to them to decide whether anything can be done or not IYSWIM

Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 13:45

update.
Oh my god cannot believe what has happened! I went to counselling and had a wonderful hour with a super counsellor. He asked me how much of this I had discussed with my husband and I told him we talked it out in full on the day friend told me. we have talked about it alot since then but morre about the falloutof the allegation etc. when i thought about it afterwards I realised that I really needed to sit with him in the cold light of day and talk about it again, as we were both pretty hysterical the first time. we sat to talk and I asked him to start at the beginning and tell me again. He said he felt really uncomfortable talking in detail about it and he thought that by him saying there was kissing that I did not any more detail to conclude there had been consent. He is not particularly good at talking about his feelings at the best of times but this was too much having to tell his wife about having sex with another woman!
I realised as he was talking that there was more coming. He still does not recall getting into her bed and think he may have got in and fallen back asleep. some time later they started kissing and fondling. He remembers 4 facts from the sex session in no particular order, 1. she sat up at one stage and remover a white top and lay back down. She had not been wearing anything else. 2. at one point the duvet fell off the end of the bed and he got out of bed and pulled it back up to cover them up. 3 there was alot of kissing and fondling from them both. he remembers having sex but she was fully awake and aware as much as he was. there. I am now left in doubt that it was a mutual sexual act but that he was knowingly unfaithful to her. Henever thought it was me, he says HE never said that and I agree that I assumed that that was the case. We have spent all morning writing out his account and I am meeting with my friend at 430 today to talk. I do not know what I hope will be the outcome but at best, if it helps herwith any recall of the event that may be agood thing? at worst she will call him a liar and may have some other details to ad but I feel completely compelled to talk to her, can't eat, sleep of think until I do.

OP posts:
Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 13:47

Sorry, I am now left in NO doubt that it was a mutual sexual act!

OP posts:
Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 13:48

sorry again, no know he was unfaithful to ME not her

OP posts:
tartyhighheels · 09/03/2010 13:52

Good for you for facing that out - whatever you were going to find out it wasn't easy.

You have some balls for seeing this through and not ignoring and running off.

Good luck this afternoon.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 09/03/2010 13:55

Oh, dawn, I'm not sure if this is good or bad news for you- on one hand, he is now denying the rape (although you may be sure that others will jump in on here and tell you he is now lying/ changing his story etc) but in this new version he is unfaithful to you for certain . I really don't know your DH so can't comment one way or the other, but it is a pity he wasn't 100% honest with you from the beginning as it does somewhat weaken his credibility. Of course, he may just have been trying to shield you from his infidelity.

I would still be very careful in talking to your friend. She is unlikely to suddenly change her story from rape to "oh, ok then, I was implicit in the act, sorry about that" She is more likly to be angry that he is now challenging her version and more adamant than ever- please tread very very very carefully. Whatever happens here, I think it is good that you are seeing a councillor as you need some help and support to get your head round all of this. I would think twice about about meeting your friend on your own- both of you are in a fragile and anxious state and it may be sensible to have someoe neutral present- could you both meet with either your or her counseller present? I worry things will get heated and nasty otherwise. she may well see this new version as you calling her a liar, and get angry. Please be careful

Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 14:07

jooly, thanks for that. I appreciate what you are saying. I wish we had delved further into that night but notes I jotted down immediately afterwards show that his story hasn't changed from what HE told me. He has added to it after hearing that i needed to know more details about the encounter. I am afraid that my misinterpretation of his (very poorly) described recollections are at fault here. I made alot of assumptions about it as prob felt I could not probe deeper into what he meant by kissing and fondling. Yes he has been knowingly unfaithful to me and we will deal with that. It is so hard to describe here to you, a stanger, but I am going with my gut and taking 12 years of our lives together through some difficult times and many good times into account when I say that I 100 percent believe his account of events. I am not intending on telling my friend that though. I am meeting her in order to give his recollection of the night as she will not meet him so somebody has to do it. I asked counsellor yesterday if it was poss to meet her with him or with her counsellor and he said no. both counsellors have loyalty to their own clients and it would be an impossible situation.

OP posts:
dittany · 09/03/2010 14:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ImSoNotTelling · 09/03/2010 14:14

I don't understand why neither councellor will act as a mediator. Will another councellor do it? Could either of the ones involved recommend someone?

I do think it is important that there is someone else there who can act as a mediator, I really do.

I am sorry that your DH has been unfaithful.

And as for the rest of it - well one of them is lying, which is more cut and dried than before but certainly no better. No room for "misunderstandings" now IYSWIM

Joolyjoolyjoo · 09/03/2010 14:18

FWIW dawn, I trust your judgement of your DH- you seem very level-headed, ad I would find it a bit far fetched that the kind of man who would sneak off to force another woman into sex while his gf was in the same house would then go on to live a decent and exemplary life for the next 14 years! leopards and spots and all that.

I can see why the counsellors would say that- pity. I'm sure you will be fine- just stick to telling your friend his version and refuse to be drawn into anything. tell her you can't answer her questions, that you can only show her what your DH would have said had she been willing to talk to him. If she wants to go further into it, she would really need to talk to your DH. Don't apologise- you didn't do anything, and it isn't up to you to apologise on behalf of your DH, you might even want to explain that to her. But I would be gentle with her too.

I don't envy you, woman, but I admire your determination to sort this out. All the best!

tartyhighheels · 09/03/2010 14:19

hurrah dittany the doom monger is back!

And sorry to that your dh was unfaithful (but you were not married then at least - not great but not as bad as it could be i guess)but better news than being a rapist .

I think it is great that you have such faith in him that you have believed him all the way through - strong marriage.

HarderToKidnap · 09/03/2010 14:21

Both may be telling the absolute truth from their POV, ISNT. The woman may not have recollection of the events leading up to penetration.

It seems very strange though that now things have started to get more serious dawn, your husband has changed his story from "I can't remember penetration, there may have been" to "yes, we had full and mutually consensual sex". You 100% believed him when he was lying to you before - you 100% believe him now. What does your husband say happened afterwards?

Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 14:21

good point dittany. I want her to know I am opening up a line of communication. I want her to know that I want to hear her side to.

OP posts:
Original poster
dawntildusk · 09/03/2010 14:28

hardertokidnap, I know this sounds rubbish but he still says he cannot ACTUALLY remember the physical feeling of penetrating her but assumes they did have actual sex because he remembers being in the missionary position at one stage. He was describing "coming too" at the kissing part and becoming fully aware of what was happening, they had a brief exchange of "wtf are we doing" and he left. That was the only time they spoke throughout the entire act. he reckons it was 10 mins from start to finish.

OP posts:
dittany · 09/03/2010 14:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CelticBanshee · 09/03/2010 15:08

Dawn, I'm sorry to hear your husband was unfaithful

Dittany, how do you explain why she can't remember anything after the 'event'?

Have you EVER been that drunk that you black out?

Just answer those two questions for me please so I can understand your insistence that he is a rapist

dittany · 09/03/2010 15:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ImSoNotTelling · 09/03/2010 15:30

"It would be seriously damaging for a rape victim to have mediation with her rapist if the rapist was insisting on his innocence which this guy is. "

I was talking about a third party being there when the OP talks to the friend. That is going to be a very difficult conversation.

ImSoNotTelling · 09/03/2010 15:33

Although thinking about it I'm also not sure there is anything to talk about either.

I am not sure how going to this woman and calling her a liar will help anything, whoever is telling the truth. If she is a liar she's hardly going to suddenly admit it, in fact if she's doing it for attention as some people have suggested then it will make things worse. If she's not lying then it will just make things much much worse for her, to know that she has made this huge revelation and no-one believes her.

I don't know what to suggest really.

motherlovebone · 09/03/2010 15:38

its all coming back to him then

dittany · 09/03/2010 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CelticBanshee · 09/03/2010 15:43

Thanks for answering me

I'll tell you now why I'm more willing to believe his story: My OH is a binge drinker, he's often left our bed and ended up on the couch without recalling how he got there.

We've had sex which he also can't remember.

I used to be a binge drinker too, although I have myself under control for the past number of years, I've woken up with a man inside me, not remembering how I got from being asleep to having sex.. until later that day when I got a flash back - me sucking him off beforehand

When there's ALOT of drink involved, I don't believe anyone's memory is a very reliable source

I have also been raped by an ex-boyfriend, I was sober, I knew it was rape and I most certainly did not tell him 'let's forget about it', nor did I go to his wedding

That's why I, personally, find his story believable and her's not so much

ImSoNotTelling · 09/03/2010 15:52

Each person has their own experiences though celtic which colours how they see these events.

Which is why for me it's best not to say who is telling the truth - I know which person I would believe but I believe them because I'm me with my life experience IYSWIM.

Even with drunkeness the two accounts are a total mis-match now - one has shouting to get off and the other has a calm conversation - totally different versions and at the point where both of them say they have full memory of events.

So one of them must be lying IYSWIM it is no longer room for hazy misunderstandings.

MrsPixie · 09/03/2010 15:54

He has totally changed his story and it still doesn't add up. This is all so predictable.

It doesn't sound like a blackout to me, he remembers all the minute details that implicate HER as a liar but none about himself.

I would be even more suspicious now that if he had stuck to his former story OP, so sorry. In a twisted way I understand why you are sticking by him, I think you must be in shock I would be.