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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

life turned upside down

632 replies

dawntildusk · 04/03/2010 22:15

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

OP posts:
differentnameforthis · 08/03/2010 09:03

"I still don't get why being drunk seems to be an excuse for anything. If you get yourself so paralytic that you don't know what you're doing then that is YOUR FAULT. You have a choice - don't get so bloody drunk. But no, people no longer have any incentive to not get wasted, because they think it absolves them of all responsibility. Well it fucking doesn't. I'm afraid if this does get taken further, it's his own fault for being so drunk he didn't know what he was doing. I do understand that he's probably not a 'bad person' though"

This goes for both involved, yes? Or is it just his fault that he was so drunk he didn't know what he was doing?

Is she completely absolved of all responsibility because he was drunk too & therefore is the ONLY guilty party here?

differentnameforthis · 08/03/2010 09:05

therefore he is the ONLY guilty party here?

BalloonSlayer · 08/03/2010 09:14

"Is she completely absolved of all responsibility because he was drunk too & therefore [he] is the ONLY guilty party here? "

Sorry, what was it that she did wrong then differentnameforthis?

Fiendishly wrapped her evil vagina around an unsuspecting man's penis while she was fast asleep?

differentnameforthis · 08/03/2010 09:30

"I also don't understand how people can be absolutely sure that this woman wasn't raped when none of us were there"

Neither can we be absolutely sure she WAS raped, for the very same reason! Really, no one knows what happened, not even the dh or the friend, yet HE is lying, he is a rapist!? She can't be recalling it all wrong could she? Or leaving out some details.

Women have cried rape when they regretted an encounter.

Find it hard to believe that she doesn't remember before or after, but recalls the 2 seconds where she stopped it!

SolidGoldBrass · 08/03/2010 09:55

Neume: I sort of see where you are coming from - not that any kind of assault is acceptable, but that it is not a good idea to make it the defining factor in a person's life, especially when the child was so young at the time of the incident. THis is not to say it should be suppressed but the parents should not bring it up unless the child does,and should stress that while a bad man did a bad thing, it's over now and he's locked up, and it wasn't their DD's fault and then change the subject.
I think the same applies to adult victims of crime as well - some types of therapy for instance seem to encourage wallowing and I fail to see how it can be good for you to define yourself as 'X who was attacked' rather than 'X who loves chocolate/is good at tennis/is training to be a teacher/wants to live in Mexico/and all the other various things that make up a person'.
If you make the rest of your life all about your bad experience, aren't you letting the assailaint win? When anyone has hurt you in any way, the best victory is always going on to enjoy the rest of your life.

Buda · 08/03/2010 10:18

Well I think what this thread has shown is how widely viewed this can be.

I still don't think (from what I have read on this thread) that the OP's DH intended to rape their friend. He was drunk and in a strange house and went to the loo and seems to have ended up in the wrong room and bed. Could have been semi sleepwalking.

Due to alcohol she was possibly in a deeper sleep thank usual and only became aware of what was happening when he started to penetrate and kiss her. When they both 'came to' he stopped straight away which for me says a lot about his intentions. I know dittany says that he possibly only stopped because she woke up but given that they were in a bed with him presumably on top and given that men are stronger than women generally, he could easily have continued and fully penetrated her. That in my book would have been rape. Was she sexually assaulted? Yes I think so. Was it done with malicious intent? I don't think so.

I think he made a drunken, possibly half sleep-walking mistake. But I think his biggest mistake was not telling the OP the next day. But I can understand also that he apologised to the girl involved and was told to forget about it. Given that she continued to be closely involved with them as a couple he took that to mean she had forgotten it and saw it for what it was.

So fast forward to now. 14 years on. We have a troubled woman who has led a life where drink and drugs played a large part. She is having counselling. This has come to the fore again. Perhaps she did feel traumatised by it and in trying to bury those feelings turned to drink and drugs. Perhaps not. I think only she knows and will have to address that with a counsellor. Which seems to be what is happening.

As to what happens with the OP and her DH. The OP knows this man and knows what he is like deep down. She says this is not going to destroy her marriage.

Someone suggested that maybe the DH and the friend could go to a counsellor together. I think this could be a very good idea. It would get everything out in the open with someone who is trained to be objective. If this happens maybe then they can all move on.

Whether I or any or us on this thread believes that it was rape is immaterial as others have said. This woman currently feels that she was raped. The OP's DH wants to try and sort this. SO i think counselling would be the way to go for everyone's sakes. Esp as the woman has already told mutual friends. This needs to stop now.

LindenAvery · 08/03/2010 11:54

OP - it is very telling that your DH has never told you about this until confronted with it - WHY is that do you think?

Once at Uni my friend's boyfriend (drunk and sleepy) got up - went for a piss and came back to my room by mistake. I woke up as he attempted to get into my bed to which I called out 'wrong room!' turned him round and marched him back to the right one.

Next morning he was very apologetic to me and his girlfriend, told EVERYONE (house full of girls) was very redfaced when he found out he was naked and was very worried/concerned about what we would all think of him if I hadn't woke up and he had got into bed with me. The point is it wasn't something to cover up - it needed to be dealt with there and then from a trust point of view.

Your friend needs to talk about it - she is NOT responsible for what happened - it was not HER who drunkenly got into bed with your husband.

SolidGoldBrass · 08/03/2010 12:17

Lindenavery, but the OP says her H apologised to the friend the next morning, didn't try to pretend it hadn't happened, and the friend told him to forget about it. Not everyone feels the need to publicly abase themselves over a mistake and the man may have felt (at the time) that the friend wouldn't want it publicly discussed either. So I don't think that's a key factor.

LindenAvery · 08/03/2010 13:08

SGB - Yes but he didn't tell his girlfriend either?

Original poster
dawntildusk · 08/03/2010 14:41

have just got back from an appointment with a counseller! I really hit a wall over the weekend and was compelled to talk to somebody about it. mutual friend can only say/hear so much as she is also talking to friend and I really felt the need to talk to somebody impartial with no agenda whatsoever. WOW, the feeling of relief i have now having spoken to a non-judgemental, uninvolved person is huge. When I contacted him this morning(after phoning around for ages) I was initially trying to get an appointment for dh and I to go together but he suggested that it sounded to him as though I needed to talk on my own first off. glad I did as we explored alot of my relationship with my friend and the aftermath of the accusation aswell. I have no doubt that being on this board and having the discussions that I did was the catalyst that I needed to take action of some sort and I have done that now. The first step, I am sure, on a long, long road ahead but at least I have taken that step. thanks to you all, especially to the women who shared their experiences with me as that really opened my eyes to dh situation AND to my friends situation.

OP posts:
ImSoNotTelling · 08/03/2010 18:01

Good luck with it all dawntildusk, I hope that the situation can be resolved without further upset. I am sure it is possible

ChippingIn · 08/03/2010 19:25

Dawntildusk - I am really glad you have done that, hopefully it will help you & your DH through this x

kaffers · 08/03/2010 19:45

Good luck DawntilDusk - you just sound so level headed, courageous and dignified about all this that if anyone can find a way through it all, you can. x

Bumpety · 08/03/2010 20:44

Very best of luck Dawntildusk x

McBitchy · 08/03/2010 22:08

scares me the way the 'troubled life with drink and drugs' comes in to play when discussing this

TOTALLY irrelevant

what is relevant in law is what happened in that room that night between those two people

Smacks of the old style courtroom scenario where a rape victims sexual history is picked over

It is not about her or how she lived her life in the 14 years after the event

It's about the event and what the man did or did not do

neume · 08/03/2010 22:35

McBitchy - The drink/drugs is not relevant with regards to the events of that night per se, but may be very relevant in terms of her breakdown which she is blaming in that night's events.

The law probably won't help her as she cannot remember very much of what did happen, particularly before the incident, in which case it would be hard to prove rape beyond reasonable doubt.

Dawn - I am pleased you feel you have made a positve first step with counselling and I wish you all the very best for the future.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 08/03/2010 22:43

dawn- glad to hear you are finding a way forward with this. Really hope you all get a reasonable solution.

McBitchy · 08/03/2010 23:20

neume the law do help even when memories are patchy

CelticBanshee · 08/03/2010 23:38

What exactly could the law do here McBitchy?

She doesn't remember anything before or after him penetrating

He doesn't remember penetrating but does remember kissing

Who in Jazuz name would get a conviction out of that?

McBitchy · 08/03/2010 23:54

are you saying historical accounts of sexual assaults with differing accounts need not try?

McBitchy · 08/03/2010 23:59

i am really glad you are getting some positive help dawn

CelticBanshee · 09/03/2010 00:03

'are you saying historical accounts of sexual assaults with differing accounts need not try?'

Why yes of course, that's exactly what I'm saying, I'd be suprised if you had interpreted what I said in any other way

SHE doesn't remember EXACTLY what happened. SHE could have reciprocated. NOBODY knows exactly what went on

  • is that clearer?

You think he should be charged for what 'could' have happened?

Ok

McBitchy · 09/03/2010 00:06

of course not

McBitchy · 09/03/2010 00:07

lots of accounts of sexual assaults differ
especially historical ones
does not stop them being reported

CelticBanshee · 09/03/2010 00:16

No, it doesn't stop them from being report of course BUT I doubt the 'law could help' given the hazy memories of both parties here!

Which is what we were disagreeing on in the first place