life turned upside down

[dawntildusk]

I am really freaked out and need help putting this in perspective.
Here goes.
2 weeks ago a good friend of 25 years told me straight out that my dh (then boyfriend) raped her. It happened 14 years ago. She told me she has no recollection whatsoever of the night leading up to or immediately after the event. She woke up with him in the bed and he was inside her. She shouted at him and he left. Obviously I was shattered, devastated, nauseous, reeling from the shock. I sympathised with her, held her and hugged her and apologised over and over. When I confronted dh he was all the above multiplied by a million. His recollection of the event is this. We were all out drinking for the afternoon at a rugby match followed by the pub and then a club. 16 hours later we went to her house and he was helped to bed(by my brother and me). During the night he got out of our bed, he reckons to go to the bathroom, and climbed back in her bed. He remembers kissing and fondling, he does not deny he may have penetrated her but only "came too" after some kissing and they both realised what was happening at the same time. He left immediately, still really drunk and went back to bed.
I don't know what I am looking for by posting this but the word "rape" for me conjures up much different images than the one described to me. We have been married 12 years and have 4 beautiful children. My dh has been a kind, thoughtful, caring and supportive partner to me and I love him dearly. My friend is single, turning 40 this year and is blaming her recent breakdown on this event. I am so confused and need to know what you think. Is this rape?

Is this rape?

You honestly believe our society would be better if women were not able to speak of these things?

I am very sorry for what happened to your father. But lots of women who have been raped also commit suicide, suffer emotional breakdowns, family breakdown and so on. Lives are ruined, and often ended by this crime. To deny them their right to talk about their experiences, when true allegations outweigh false ones so heavily, is that really a good thing?

Do you think the 19yo I mentioned earlier should not have spoken to her friends?

amber you stated "It was drunken idiocy, it happens." There does not seem room in there for not knowing the full story, it seems to me to be saying that what happened was drunken idiocy. I was wondering in what way the woman had behaved as a drunken idiot.

Dittany I have no idea what this woman needs to recover, I also have no idea if she was raped or not. I lack your arrogance am afraid.

Yes, I said it was drunken idiocy, I have no idea who was the idiot. It could've been her, it could've been him, it could've been both of them.

I am not purporting to know what happened.

As I pointed out earlier, the legal system does not purport to get beyond reasonable doubt, yet some of you have tried and convicted this man already - on MN.

I'm sure that really helps the OP.

Dittany - he isn't claiming to be unconscious...he is talking about a drunken daze. She on the other hand says she can't remember anything except being penetrated, shouting stop, and it stopping. That does not sound much like rape to me.

Also I think that although it is sad that others on this thread have had similar experiences, I agree with and admire the way they have handled it. Because we have a choice about whether to be a victim or not. Sometimes the choice is about how to deal with something terrible that has happened to us, but other times it is about whether that this actually was as terrible as all that.

I am reminded about something I saw on the news a couple of years ago...a couple had someone in to fix the gas or something and he put his hand up the daughter's skirt. She was 2 or 3 years old. The entire incident was over in seconds, yet they went on the news talking about how this man had abused their daughter. Without doubt he was out of order, but if they then taught the girl she was a victim of sexual abuse then in my view they would be damaging her far more than the man had....they would be teaching her how to be a victim and how not to be responsible for anything bad in her life.

And that is the problem here. OW has a raft of other problems that she is not taking responsiblity for. Instead she is taking this one incident and saying it is the reason for all her ills, in spite of her happy socialisation with the alleged rapist for all these years. To me this sounds like she is looking for excuses and not taking responsibiliy for her choices. The fact she expects OP to just leave her husband and is offering to help with babysitting is very telling.

At the end of the day there is no proof one way or the other that she was penetrated or that she was asleep/unconscious when this occured. Yet you are happy to have OP's DH branded a rapist and her family torn apart.

This happened to a friend of mine at university, she definitely felt she had been raped and did not finish her course as a result as she couldn't bear to be in the same room as the man who did this.

I would like to add, though, that on more than one occasion, DH and I have woken up to find ourselves having sex. Normally one or other of us will say afterwards 'thanks for waking me up for that' and the other will say 'YOU woke ME up'. And this is without alcohol/drugs.

In the past, when very drunk, I have sleep-walked and found myself in odd places, especially in unfamiliar contexts. Once I was staying at a hotel and thought I was going to the bathroom when actually I went out of the bedroom door. I was half-way down the corridor before I woke up/came to, and had to go to reception to get a replacement key. Luckily I wasn't sleeping naked

So I can see how the OP's situation may have happened. As others have said, no-one can be sure what exactly took place, whether there was intent or not. I would agree that the best course of action is to try to sort out the repercussions ASAP so that the situation doesn't go from bad to worse. It sounds horrible for all concerned.

I cannot believe this thread has gone around in another circle of denial.
The woman was penetrated against her will.
Leaving this thread now and hiding it. I despair. The assumption that the friend is lying or an idiot is repugnant. It's no wonder sexual violence is so rarely prosecuted.
All of those women intent on blaming the victim should really examine themselves.

'er it's ok for a man to put his hand up the skirt of a two or three year old girl now?
Oh my fucking GOD!

It's not about stigmatising the victim it's about preventing and punishing the abuse.

blinder...who said it was OK for a man to put his hand up a young girl's skirt...if you bothered to read my post you will see I said it was definitely NOT OK. However, it is also not the end of the world is it? Unless you teach the poor girl that she is a victim in which case it can colour her whole approach to life.

Also, how do you KNOW OW was penetrated against her will because by her own admission SHE CAN'T REMEMBER!!!!

So, you are saying that all parties should wallow in this incident for ever? Moving on sounds like a much better idea.

I am not sitting in judgement on anyone - I am neither dis-believing or believing the woman.

I have no special knowledge, that's the point I'm trying to get at. You're the one who has tried and convicted somebody already.

I afraid the subtlties of this will be entirely lost on you though.

Given your extensive knowledge of the subject or rape, I'm assuming that you are aware of the conecept of mens rea?

Also given that you stated that you do not believe he knew what he was doing, how in your mind have you proven MR?

Do enlighten us.

dittany - since she says she can't remember anything after the incident as well as before I don't see how it can be characterised as waking up....if you were raped would you just roll over and go back to sleep afterwards?

It seems far more likely, as I said before, to be a drunken haze rather than a clear asleep/awake situation.

Oh and FYI I know some predators seek out unconscious women to have sex with - I just don't see evidence of it here.

the issue of rape is consent rather than mens rea

dawntildusk, I have jumped all the pages in the middle of your tread as I don't want to get into the "was it rape?" question. I'm strongly invested in issues of crime against women, but want to address you as the person you are not a symbol of a wider problem.

What I've gathered:

• Your friend is (or has been) a close friend of you both for many years.
• The event happened when both your friend and DH were drunk and sleepy. It was interrupted as soon as they became conscious.
• Your friend recently had a breakdown and is in counselling.
• You & DH are concerned that she's telling other people he raped her.

I feel sympathetic to all of you. The fact that all 3 of you have been close for so long suggests she didn't see it as rape until something else - a major feature in her life, but unrelated to you - triggered a review of the event. I am sure it was traumatic for her; I can imagine how I'd feel if I woke up to find my best mate's husband inside me!!! It's very likely she 'rewrote' it somehow, in her own mind, so as to be able to keep her friendship with you. I think that's understandable. I can also see how an emotional trauma of some kind could have raised the memory. She would have found this very disturbing and, I'm sure, been frightened about it.

I don't how your husband managed to forget the incident without telling you! There's going to be a lot of very natural doubt, confusion and anger around this - anger because we always feel angry when something threatens our perceptions about ourselves and the people we love. There's going to be a bit of work on all sides, I think, before the news gets dealt with properly - as it should have been, 14 years ago.

I really feel the 3 of you should try to face the facts with a counsellor. If your friend can't or doesn't want to do this with her own therapist, could you ask her to come to Relate with you?

Things like this have a habit of gathering nasty fluff if you shove them back under the carpet. Better to take a few deep breaths and resolve to (finally) deal with it like three adults. I do hope this goes well, for all of you.

If a man put his hand up my 2yo skirt for a few seconds I would think it was pretty much the end of the world actually, and would want him prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

You are complaining that the parents didn't brush this incident aside?

You are complaining that women who have been drunk and assulated make a fuss about it, thinking they are victims of assult, when what they should do is have a stiff upper lip and put it down to experience?

Who are you to judge how any woman, child, man or parent should feel or react when sexual abuse occurs?

Good GRIEF

I think I might leave this too, I am finding the comments increasingly disturbing.

OP I really do hope that you can all find a way through this. I also agree that an opportunity for you all to talk about it with mediation might be really positive - it may be that if your friend can have it acknowledged what happened and talk it through, it will put her at peace with it, which would be the best outcome all round as far as I can see.

Good luck.

I think the man absolutely should be punished to the full extent of the law, but I also think that the parents should be very careful about what they teach the child about the incident in future. They can choose to treat her as a victim and imply her life has been ruined, or they can try to teach her resiliance - that sometimes life is just shit but you need to move on.

This is my point....we should avoid using damaging labels. On several occasions I have been groped whilst on public transport...it was pretty unpleasant but I don't let it ruin my life or go round feeling that I am a victim of sexual abuse.

Here we have an OW who apparently has a variety of problems and has had a breakdown after the money she was living and partying off ran out. She has never really worked, but regularly abused drink and drugs both before and after the alleged rape incident.

So I question whether labelling her as a rape victim is helpful. As she has no real recollection of the events of that night, I find it hard to believe that 14 years later they would cause her to have a breakdown. On the other hand, suddenly having no money and having to radically change your lifestyle may very well be the trigger.

I am not judging the OW, but I am wondering if this incident is really the cause of her problems rather than her own self-destructive behaviours. I also do not think she is a liar...I think she is troubled and confused, and in need of sympathy. But not necessarily in need of people rallying to her rape accusation.

ItsGraceAgain- what a refreshingly calm and sensible and USEFUL post.

I dont think anyone one here is blaming the woman, genuinely.

For what its worth, I believe both of them. I believe she regained consciousness and found him inside her. I believe him when he says he cant remember more than the kissing.

People keep saying 'its not possible for people to act this way and not remember', well I'm sorry but it bloody well is because I have had this experience. I have 'come round' and been having apparently very enthusiatic sex- on TOP of some one, and then the next morning had no other memory of the event at all apart from that 30 sec flash back. I say again, extreme drunkeness is very horrid and people can be drunk enough to not remember stuff as huge as this and still be walking and talking.

Because Dittany et al can not believe this they are absolutely right from that point of view to lay into this man, but what some of us are saying is, please listen, this sort of disaster CAN happen if you allow yourself to get blind drunk. For the record HER state of drunkeness has no relevence at all except for the fact that she doesnt know how she acted towards him immediately before the event.

There are two issues here, the OP wants to know if she foolish to go with her gut instinct (knowing all the parties involved) that her husband's story is plausible, I think no, others think yes.

More immediately there is a woman in the community making a rape allegation about her husband without any obvious way of resolving the issue.
OP needs to know if the OW intents to prosecute him.
OP needs to know that if OW is not contemplating telling the police, what is it she needs to resolve the issue?
Does OW expect the OP to punish the husband on her behalf by leaving?
Would a mediated discussion with everyone help OW feel better?
What does the OW think she needs here?

I am wondering if a note of some kind, carefully worded from OP to OW might start some sort of dialogue. Something as open as 'What do you want to do next?' This situation is not going to get any better until some one starts the talking.

a bit 'out of synch' here...

I don't know hoe old your husband is or your 'friend' but a policeman from child protection told me that women in their late thirties just 'don't make this stuff up'

This is obviously just in his experience...

I agree with Cathpot, it is perfectly plausible that both parties are telling the truth.

I'm going to bow out of this, Dawn, as it is far too close to home for me, but I'd like to give you my advice first if you don't mind.

I think you need to go with your gut instinct. If you don't think your husband is a rapist, honestly, you are probably right. We can all give our opinions but they're not worth anything because we don't know him, or her.

I think it will emerge that your friend has other issues, as well as this one. How you tackle her is up to you. It will take great strength to get past this and rebuild the friendship...and even if you want to, she may not.

Your relationship with your husband is a separate issue. When the trauma is less raw, you need to examine whether there are any trust issues in your own relationship. Whatever else happened, he's admitted getting into bed with another woman, and not telling you about it. I would be considering counselling for both of you in the not too distant future.

Finally, look after yourself. None of this is your fault. None of it. It wouldn't have been avoided if you were a better friend, or a better partner. They are both adults. You are a victim in all of this. Get support where you can, whether from friends/family or a professional.

Good luck. You sound like an incredibly strong person(I'd had a bit of a breakdown by now!)

You are amazingly showing both loyalty to your husband and compassion to your friend...that can't be easy. I hope you can reach an outcome that gives all three of you peace of mind.

"I am reminded about something I saw on the news a couple of years ago...a couple had someone in to fix the gas or something and he put his hand up the daughter's skirt. She was 2 or 3 years old. The entire incident was over in seconds, yet they went on the news talking about how this man had abused their daughter. Without doubt he was out of order, but if they then taught the girl she was a victim of sexual abuse then in my view they would be damaging her far more than the man had....they would be teaching her how to be a victim and how not to be responsible for anything bad in her life."

JESUS CHRIST

I'm off - what an utterly depressing thread

Even if he thought it was his girlfriend, does that make it okay that he penetrated her whilst blind drunk? The logic here then becomes it is okay to rape your girlfriend.

I have been drunk to varying degrees. At worst I have been put to bed by others and not remembered events and had very little control over my movements. I should imagine that to gain an erection and manouvre oneself into a position to penetrate means you are not that drunk.

If I regained consciousness to find a man about to penetrate me, I would be very traumatised. In fact I was once put to bed very drunk at a party in my university years. A guy got into bed next to me, apparently just to sleep. Two male friends of mine (one of whom ended up being my dh) removed the guy from the bed and gave him a bollocking. They did not feel comfortable with him merely being there.

My dh and I have been very drunk at times over the years (pre children). Not once has he tried to penetrate me when I have been asleep or unable to consent. If he did it would be rape. End of.

This is very traumatic for you OP. I think the problem is that when people hear the word 'rape' they think of violence, force and being dragged into a dark alley by a bad man. Life is not so black and white. A man can rape once and never again. He might regret it and maybe alcohol influenced his morals.

However rape is rape. I am deeply worried that this friend's experience is being questioned. Because she was drunk? Because he didn't mean it?

I see the age old misogynist shite keeps regurgitating. It is very worrying indeed

has someone really put that???

no wonder dittany gets on her hobby horse on these threads

but then as others have said these threads mirror society..

Nueme- how not to be responsible for anything bad in her life???

how can a 2/3 year old be responsible for someone putting their hand up her skirt?

teach her resilience?

utter lunacy.

Motherlove - that is not what I meant. Of course the child was an innocent and the man should be punished, but at such a young age she is unlikely to remember much about it unless her parents make a big issue of it with her (ie apart from ensuring the man is properly prosecuted).

So, for example, when the child has a normal toddler tantrum instead of telling her to behave they say it's because of what this man did to her. In this way she could be taught that acting out is OK as she is a victim of a horrible crime.

I think there is a spectrum of harm and it does not help the person who has suffered the harm necessarily to be labelled as being at the extreme end when actually the incident may not have been all that harmful.

I thought this was a good example but clearly I was wrong given peoples' reactions. My point was really to suggest that the OW's breakdown may have resulted from other factors, and by labelling her a rape victim she would not get the help she needed to deal with those.