Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

Cheers, TRM, your reply means a lot!

All I can say is: me, too That's enough, isn't it?

Oh, and another one of these

Hello ladies, trying to find a reason for H's ever increasing behaviour. So many of these stories are identical to him. Could anyone give me a description of NPR in a nutshell.I'm sure it's not that simple but would really appreciate it. Thanks

ItsGraceAgain- I fell into the trap last night of 'challenging' my H. All it achieved was raising my blood-pressure and left me completely frustrated/angry as I stupidly hoped he would not deny aggressive, bullying things he has done. Instead, he turned it around onto me - I was always the problem. He has been a saint apparently! It did not achieve anything/it never has done. I know for me, it was just a self-destructive pattern of behaviour I used to get into alot of the time, and he was in the 'passive aggressive' mode.

Sorry, I meant to put that he would be honest and admit what he has done. Yes, of course, he denied all of it.

MaggieRed - I think I am getting better - I did try to 'reason' with my NPD H - but I no longer do the 'begging' 'pleading' with him to treat me like a human being.

Ive been reading this thread for a while, and i strongly suspect that my exh may have this, although he doesnt have all the traits that suggest it.

Would any of you read the following description and give me your opinion?

He is sneaky and underhanded, two faced.
Contradicts himself and doesnt know what he thinks / feels.
Keeps journals about people, records them.
Constantly puts others down and is a terrible gossip.
Rewrites history and constantly gaslights.
Blatently lies.
Explodes if you dare challenge him
Abusive then plays it down
What i think / feel is incorrect and hes offended by it.
Hes a bully and an abuser
Hes a theif
Keeps everyone seperate from each other
Doesnt respect boundarys
Sucks up to those in authority
Addicted to porn
Sexually inadequate
Apears to have no empathy for others
Thinks only of himself
Talks about himself in the third person.
Always in debt
Nothings his fault
Hes sexually and financially abusive
Develops feelings for people he bareley knows / anyone will do.
Exagerates his acheivements and wants to be in charge of everything
Hes all about image
Has childish tantrums / outbursts if challenged
accuses me of doing to him what hes done to me
Drinks to excess
Awkward body language
Always takes the most dramatic stance, ie, its not broken, youve destroyed it
Poor personal hygeine
Vengeful and vindictive , can hold a grudge for years.
Doesnt stand up for himself and plays the victim
Controlling and a juvenile sense of humour
Juvenile attitude towards sex
Threatens suicide if he cant have his way.
Will scream and cry like a child
Will not discuss anything
Will lie, even if confronted with evidence.
Is reckless in many ways and gives little thought to consequences
Unable to meet emotional needs

Phew, thats quite a list, will stop there.
Would apreciate your thoughts.

Autumnlight, good for you for resisting the urge to reason with your H.

The only thing I've ever done which ever seemed to even superficially penetrate my X's consciousness was when he realised that I'd stopped defending myself and stopped reasoning with him. I avoid him when he comes to see the children. I had gone about 17 months without even bumping into him, I didn't reply to any mails or texts either. Once when he was seeing the children, he said to my mother with a long face "why does maggie avoid me? why won't she talk to me?". My Mum said the self-pity was oozing out of every pore when he said that!!

I only heard about it second hand, but after years and years and years of trying to get him to accept that I was a human being and he'd treated me like an incompetent employee/bad dog... after all of that, the only thing that came to his notice was me cutting him off stone dead.

He realises that that was my decision and it pisses him off. It is the only minute bit of power I have.

dignifiedwill read your post now.

ItsGraceAgain, I know what you mean about the marriage-fixing. Some marriages are worth saving and I do respect that 'institution of marriage' but I think that so many marriages aren't worth saving. If one party never had any intention of loving, honouring, cherishing,,,, then it wasn't a marriage, and certainly not one worth saving. People seem to be prepared to put up with so much to avoid saving themselves and leaving. They see saving them self as giving up on the relationship. They value a bad relationship more than they value them self. I was in that mindset for a while too. But it's sad to read it and to know that there are so many other trapped people out there all feeling that confusion, sadness, anxiety......

Apparently, women's aid are all nutters, and everyone on here is a crank.

dignified I think your exh has npd yes. That list has all the classics imo!. Explodes if you dare challenge him.
Abusive and then plays it down. Nothing is his fault. Constantly puts other people down. Accuses you of doing what he has done to you. financially abusive. no empathy. feelings of inadequacy. big ideas about himself. sucking up to authority. holding grudges for years.

These are just the ones my X had in spade loads.

i realise now reading these threads that I am lucky that if my x had a porn problem i never knew about it, and he never kept journals about me either (that i know of). He was secretive though. And I didn't go into his space or touch his computer bag/diary etc...

You also mention something that strikes a chord... the keeping people separate thing was something my x's family did. My x's father had a first family (whom he left and I never understood the reason, it seemed very sudden, and the age gap between the eldest child in his second family and the youngest in his first family is shockingly narrow for those times) anyway.. He used to see them separately. Which was totally unnecessary as he was long divorced from my x's mother. The half-siblings would have liked to have met each other more but my xfil went out of his way to compartmentalise... I always thought it was odd.

Dignified I too recognise most of your list.
My ex is sneaky to the extreme. He will work out very complicated plans to get what he wants. He manipulates situations to his advantage in a very unobvious way so he never comes across as aggressive.
He also bears grudges for years - never forgets a slight against him.

Interestingly, my h was a virgin when I met him at 24. I think his upbringing had a lot to do with this. He was raised by parents who had an over-dependence on the church, and I'm talking the Catholic church in Ireland here. His parents were very unworldly and out of touch with the realities of raising children. They applied their god-fearing view of a very real belief that hell did indeed exist as a place and as a result all impure thoughts around sex were regarded as a sin.
Saying that, my h, who was a devout catholic when I met him, lost his virginity fairly quickly to me!
During our marriage he has displayed a very dark side to his sexuality. He has - at least, not to my knowledge - never displayed an interest in the same sex. But he has shown no boundaries in wanting to experiment sexually.
Sex to him was always about power. He liked to dominate and have me describe to him how I would be gang-fucked by all of his friends. I suspect that, had I ever hinted that this could become a reality he would have arranged it.
During the times he used drugs this devious side to his sexuality became more pronounced. He refered to it as his 'shadow side' and during these times there would be no escaping his need to have rough and endless sex. I'm cringing in horror right now thinking about those episodes. I know at the time I became compliant and submissive to get it over with - refusing was not an option.

And that side to him is so much in contrast to the 'caring, sensitive guy' who works with the underpriviledged. The man who is in full control of his life and actions, who is the voice of reason and loves giving advice.
It's real Jeckyl and Hyde stuff.

Thank you for this thread.

Thank god i'm not in that situation any more.

Thank god i left.

Thank god i have a new lovely partner.

Thank you for the validation ... I need it! Even though I know better, the habit of "It's all my fault, I'm faulty" is so ingrained I have to consciously dispute it. Still, I guess knowing is half the battle! At least I no longer automatically assume I'm in the wrong when somebody cuts me up in traffic - that was my first confirmation that I'm getting better

Autumn, well done for realising your efforts were pointless! It's a long, slow process, isn't it? Just goes to show how those behaviours screw us up. No, of course he won't suddenly admit what he's done to you - let alone feel remorse for it. Sam Vaknin seems to be aware of the effect he has on others - but, nonetheless, doesn't care about it. My Dad was pretty much the same, come to think of it: he never admitted to Mum that he knew he hurt her, but he did to me a few times. With him, it was just a case of "This is how I am. I know you dislike it but there you go."

I've noticed that kind of statement often: "This is me. Take it or leave it." I used not to believe it - after all, 'normal' people do say that sometimes - but now I pay attention. One thing that keeps coming up in these threads is that we should listen to what people tell us about themselves! Although XH#2 said he wanted to change his distant & secretive behaviours, he said far more often that he wasn't going to change. I chose to believe the change thing and ignore the real message. Sucker!

MaggieBlue, your posts are inspiring - thanks! This: "They value a bad relationship more than they value them self" is so, so true. And heartbreaking. I hope all the 'nutters' reading this thread will get themselves back, and find their freedom

Therealme, i think i might have spoken to you before.
My ex was severeley sexually abusive and like yours knew no boundaries . He had little interest in normal sex and wasnt interested unless he was humiliating or dominating. After each encounter i felt humiliated and used.

The more i objected to what he was doing the more he would do it and seemed to get a perverse thrill from hurting me. I have had counselling about this and am ok now, but there was a time i felt thoroughly broken.

It still bothers me that others dont see him for what he is, although i accept it took me years .

I hate he has women who adore him, i so want EVERYONE to see him for what he is.The differance between who they pretend to be, and really are, is quite horrifying.

Im now left with quite a untrusting nature, i see red flags everywhere , and i wonder how i used to be so naive around people.

Never would i have imagined that there are so many people out there who insist on pushing boundarys.
Recognising it is a bit scary , and im still a bit unsure of myself.

Eg, went out with freinds a few weeks ago, my freind and i accepted a lift home from a man we both know and have known for years.

Its a 5 minuite drive home and when we arrived here, he got out of the car, clearly expecting to come in. I thanked him for the lift and proceeeded to come inside, at which point he asked if he could use the loo.

Sureley he shouldve gone before he left the pub? Seemed like a sneaky attempt to come in which i wasnt comfortable with. Fast forward a week and he turned up here uninvited for a " brew ".

Im sick of dealing with these pushy idiots and often dont realise someones trying it on until afterwards.

Good luck for the weekend, BaggyAgy. Hope your garden's looking good

The more I read the more I understand.

I am aware thatreading stuff on a website, there is perhaps a tendenct to make things fit. But even when I allow for that.....well, I wanted an explanation. It seems that I have it.

The sex thing is interesting. I was so glad to be away from my porn addicted first husband. I thought that H was a wonderful lover. Indeed at first he was. But then it just stopped, and really quite early on. It had the odd flash of life very occaisionally. But he just didn't see me as a sexual being, only when drunk. I used to call my contraceptive, the pointless pill.

The keeping people separate is interesting too. In fact it answers the question in another thread I posted.

I have never been to my FIL's or BIL's houses. I don't know the phone numbers or addresses. Obviously, this has caused arguments. It was addressed at relate, but there was always an excuse. The kids have been, but not me. The only reason I have had is that he thought that I would think badly of him. Which is a disgusting thing to say.....what does that say about me?

He considers himself to be much better at his job than anyone else. Today he was making horrible remarks about the musicians who just happen to be MY friends/ colleagues, and how crap they are. H is brilliant at his job, but he's not creative with it. That sounds weird to say that a musician isn't creative, but even that process was a kind of "going through the motions". Almost autisitic. I have NEVER had that hair on the back of the neck moment when working with him as I have had with other musicians.

Pitiful was a word used before.....and he is. But why do I STILL think that I love him?

dignified, re-reading your list I remembered that I was recently thinking about the "third person" thing. How weird is that?! The first time I heard Jon do it, I realised there was something big going on. Both my exes used to rehearse forthcoming challenges by talking about them as if they'd happened in the past. That's weird enough.

Rehearsing a challenge until you feel as if you've already done it is a perfectly valid & useful technique. But taking that extra step to saying you've done it - as a reality - shows an alarming lack of self-awareness, IMO.

An 'expert' had assured me it isn't unusual. Thanks to him, I didn't worry about it until Jon actually did it in the third person. I now suspect the expert himself had NPD (as so many do!!) These days, I regard inaccurate use of the past tense as a huge red flag.

Aarghh. Sexual abuse. Both my exes were fond of a bit of anal rape. There, I've said it.
Bastards.

< even that process was a kind of "going through the motions". Almost autistic. >
Saddest - I wonder if we are onto something here? I know there are supposed to be "Vast" differences between NPD and Asperger's - and I absolutely don't want to tar all Aspies with the brush of malice ... but could they be different strands of the same disorder?

Admitting to have been sexually abused was horrific. At the time i knew i was being abused but didnt feel the full horror until hed been gone for quite a while.Somehow i must have normalised it.

When at counselling i looked at how i arrived here , at my lack of boundarys and other stuff. I think im getting the hang of it, but im still so very angry at myself for putting up with such horrific treatment , and im still so angry at him and the years ive wasted.

Counseller stressed that sexually abusive men are ALWAYS sexually abusive, and that he will go on to abuse others.
It sounds horrible, but i hope that its true ( not that i want him to hurt other women )but because i want proof that it wasnt me , if that makes sense.

wrt keeping people separate I wonder if that is so that the NPD has (they think) control over their own image. They present this image to you and you should accept that. But if they introduce all their children and relatives and acquaintances, then suddenly people might discuss you and what they think of you....... that would be a fear for a lot of normal decent people, but a real fear for a bastardy NPD type.

I think my x has Asperger sysndrome, and I think the reason he became a bastard was because that was unrecognised and unsupported and his family are odd fcuks... my son is on the spectrum too and he is loved, encouraged, supported (in terms of his educational needs) and I think that my son will feel less disconnected from the World. He might feel he is a little different but he'll be allowed to be iykwim! So I don't think that aspergers=NPD. But I think Aspergers+fuckwitbastardbadparents+no support at school+lonely isolated teenager = NPD.

jmo

The keeping people separate is a noted control mechanism, but usually with Ns they divide and conquer...ie they create bad feeling between the different factions. Everything then has to go through them, and they control the information flow.

So it's very common for instance that the children of Ns all have tricky, if not downright hostile, relationships with each other,as the N parent keeps the siblings in a state of animosity through their actions. These can be as simple as overtly favouring one child over another.

The N parent then of course takes great pleasure in these hostile relationships they, themselves have created. My own mother has done this with me and my sibling, except she overshot a bit, and my sibling is a histrionic N herself.

My exH and his family did this with my children, but as the children are aware of his intentions, they don't blame each other for the situation. The child who was devalued is a nice person too, so this helps.

The autism link is interesting, as I was certain that my Father was Aspergers until I found out about NPD, so the theory that Ns develop into Ns from Aspergers in abusive and difficult childhoods could be the somewhere near the truth. In fact both my parents (who I believe are both Ns, but of different types), have autistic tendencies, and both had extremely difficult childhoods. Neither had any affection or love, and both had parents who were at best uninterested in them.

Neither of them had any clue how to bring up children, or hoe to behave in many social situations. And of course, both are/were very cruel and nasty.

I'd say there are a few other routes to being an NPD (but I'm certain that if my x had been brought up in a normal, supportive family and had had a school counsellor who maybe talked to him about his feeling a bit disconnected from other students during his teenage years, then he might not be the asshole with npd that he is today.) But his parents were awful.

My xfil was (is) even more machiavellian in his little power games than my x was. My x only bullied and controlled me.. My xfil used to stir up trouble with little comments. Drip fed. You'd hardly notice them, unless you had an insecurity about something. Then, when a bit of upset and bad feeling between the brothers had stewed and simmered for a few weeks, he'd make a big show of intervening and 'smooth it over' but he never really smoothed things out. He always left a wound there. He never did or said what needed to be said in order to take back the hurt/confusion/misunderstanding.

Those brothers are wary of each other. he's robbed his own children the chance of relationships with each other. what a freaky thing to do.