Narcissitic Personality Disorder (Part 2)

[Gettingagrip]

Starting another thread for us survivors.

You know I'm thinking now.....

The company that we both used to work for rang me the other week seeking an end to the animosity.

He told me that they thought that I didn't want to sing for them anymore. That was why they stopped booking me for sessions. H said it was because they'd found someone better than me.

I wonder where they got the idea from that I didn't want to do it anymore?

I remember coming home from there once and H accused me of being involved (or wanting to be) with the bloke singer that day.

I just wonder....I really do.

My mum overtly preferred my older sister to me, and completely ignored my younger sister, she was brought up by my nan, me, and various childminders. Strangely when she had her baby, very young, to a violently abusive man, she became favourite. Very odd.

Another aside........did your N's ever take photo's of you? It's just thought, but there are virtually no photo's of me as a baby, but loads of my sister. My h has loads of iphone pictures, and again , virtually none of them are of me. It's like not existing....a bit like my marriage.

It'sGraceAgain, Can you give me an example of 'inaccurate use of the past tense'. I don't think my x actually did this, but I am interested...

My x not only never took a photo of me, but he threw all of the photos of me from when I was a teenager about 1987 to when I met him in 2000 in to a skip. I'd loads of photos in an old boots box. When I left (with the clothes on our backs and didn't have time to pack) he destroyed my photos. I can't show those to my children now.

Re the Aspergers/NPD link.
Maggie and I have already discussed this subject on another forum - do you remember Maggie? It certainly left a strong impression on me.

My eldest ds was diagnosed with Aspergers in 2008. At the time I knew relatively nothing about it and went off googling and researchng. When I learned there was a genetic link it suddenly dawned on me that this could well be the reason why I had felt for years that the 'problem' might not lie with me but with my h.

I ended up accusing h of having Aspergers one day during a row. To say he went ballistic would be an understatement. But it does describe what I know about him from his past, especially as a teenager. He struggled through secondary school and made few friends. He never fitted in and having left school spent 2 years unemployed and living a solitary life.

I think it highly posible that he does have Aspergers and that this developed into NPD once his anger towards me took control. It would explain his 'black and white' view of the world, and his strong sense of justice ie, that every wrong doing must be punished. I see these traits in my son, but I am there to give a balanced view, always.

It is an interesting subject and one I will keep coming back to.

Hi, Maggie. You wish is my command

Let's say you have to ask your boss for some unscheduled time off when you know it's going to be difficult. You talk about it at home. You say "I'll tell him this, that ... " Your partner helps you along by asking "What if your boss says such and such?" You consider the options and decide, "I'll say this that, and the other ..." You know, preparing by imagining it.

Both Alan and Jon, doing this, would slip into talking as if it'd already happened. They'd start off: "I'll tell him ... " then follow along with: "I said this that, and the other ..." The time I mentioned earlier, Jon actually said "He went to ..." when what he meant was "I'll go to ..."

That's so freakin' weird, I can't believe I didn't pack a bag on the spot!!!

yes TRM!,, when i was 'Dulcie'. I was trying to be a really objective. I was really trying hard to only post what i could find some basis for online.

i know we both have sons on the spectrum TRM, but I don't worry about my son becoming like his father. I just think it's a different time, and the care and the education and the support is there, and the LOVE. my x had terrible parents and my son and your son have one very good, loving accepting parent with their eyes wide open. How do you feel about it? Do you worry? Or do you feel it will be so different?

itsgraceagain that sounds really delusional! Becoming confused between history, the future, reality, their vision of the future. ALL of it so blurred they can't see where one starts and the other begins. I am that an 'expert' would say "oh that's fine, it's normal"!!

I think when someone has their own script in their head, as an aid to some upcoming interview or whatever, it can be helpful. When that script takes place in the past tense, and is accompanied by stage directions and lines for the other person, then the person has, in his mind, entered the head of someone else as well as their suit and shoes, or has unconsciously assumed this is possible. That's where the creepiness comes in and the line between self and someone else has been crossed.

Dignified, your list says NPD to me..
He is sneaky and underhanded, two faced. -- fear of authority figures.
Contradicts himself and doesn't know what he thinks / feels. -- aka gaslighting.
Keeps journals about people, records them.
Constantly puts others down and is a terrible gossip. -- this is exMIL's hobby. It's what passes as dinner conversation in her house. Family members and siblings of exH (and probably me, these days) who are not present are discussed as well as neighbours, colleagues, friends of MIL.
Rewrites history and constantly gaslights. -- exH
Blatently lies. exH
Explodes if you dare challenge him -- my exH
Abusive then plays it down -- my exH has never once said sorry, for anything.
What i think / feel is incorrect and hes offended by it. -- my exH
Hes a bully and an abuser -- my exH
Hes a theif -- constantly talks about honesty, but since I found out about his online activities, I suspect he talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.
Keeps everyone seperate from each other -- tried to drive a wedge between me and my family.
Doesnt respect boundarys -- my exH
Sucks up to those in authority -- my exH
Addicted to porn -- my exH (well maybe not addicted, but certainly very into it)
Sexually inadequate -- my exH; exH also attracted to men, I discovered
Apears to have no empathy for others -- weirdly over-empathetic for some people, but it came across as fake, OTT.
Thinks only of himself -- exH
Talks about himself in the third person. -- exH dramatised himself and his life in terms of a struggle between good and evil; sprinkled notes to me written during a marriage retreat with quotes from ancient Greek literature (in Greek...)
Always in debt -- money runs through my ex's hands, in part because he buys only the very best, even down to the most expensive bog roll.
Nothings his fault -- me exH
Hes sexually and financially abusive -- my exH; completely ignored me sexually for years and years on end. Took chequebook from me, hauled me over the coals for small adding or subtraction mistakes, mostly caused by my inability to read his terrible writing in entries he made in the register. Was self-employed so lived on a financial knife edge for many years and took suggestions from me wrt marketing, networking, branching into bread and butter areas of his profession as personal insults.
Develops feelings for people he bareley knows / anyone will do. -- this goes with the weird over-empathising; exH tends to 'mirror' people.
Exagerates his acheivements and wants to be in charge of everything -- thought he was the world's greatest plumber, painter, carpenter. He wasn't, not even close. Constantly complained about everyone he ever worked with and had a special animosity for former bosses. He was the only one who ever got anything done, everyone else was lazy and incompetent.
Hes all about image -- yes, and the image can change very fast. ExH has completely changed his image from dowdy guy who didn't care what deodorant or soap brand he used, to moisturiser-using, metrosexual dandy.
Has childish tantrums / outbursts if challenged -- exH
accuses me of doing to him what hes done to me -- lots and lots and lots of projection by exH
Drinks to excess -- my exH
Awkward body language -- walks very stiffly, never relaxed, facial expressions are odd. He can look absolutely blank.
Always takes the most dramatic stance, ie, its not broken, youve destroyed it -- exH always assumed the worst case scenario; if anything wasn't perfect it was ruined. If something went wrong, it couldn't possibly be salvaged, and blame has to be affixed to someone else, never him, for anything going wrong before anything could be done about it. He once went berserk when we missed a turn driving around a small island, no more than 10 miles across. He screamed that we'd be lost forever, threw a huge tantrum and went into a frenzy of map-reading. We had a full tank of petrol. If we had kept going in any given direction, we'd have arrived at one of the three little villages on the island. gaaaaaaaagh. This still makes me mad. We were supposed to be on holiday...
Poor personal hygeine -- grrrrr... Skidmarks.
Vengeful and vindictive , can hold a grudge for years. -- Used phrases like 'You always..' or 'You never...', exaggerated when arguing; dragging up stuff from years and years ago.
Doesnt stand up for himself and plays the victim -- I chose to end our marriage. It was all my fault. People never appreciated him or his talents (all except his mother, who bragged constantly about him).
Controlling and a juvenile sense of humour -- exH
Juvenile attitude towards sex -- exH, plus virgin/whore attitude to women, and quibbles about legal definition of rape.
Threatens suicide if he cant have his way. -- exH did this when I didn't get over myself fast enough after he cheated on me.
Will scream and cry like a child exH; facial expressions eye-rolling like a teenage girl, rolling around on the floor, holding his head between his hands to express disbelief about something I had said or done...
Will not discuss anything -- exH used to walk around with fists clenched if an argument went on beyond what he was prepared to listen to, then walk out and slam the door.
Will lie, even if confronted with evidence. -- lie, and then go into defensive mode: to get an answer, I had to ask the absolutely specific, right question.
Is reckless in many ways and gives little thought to consequences -- driving was a nightmare; drunk driving, driving without children buckled in, running red lights and stop signs. DCs report him being pulled over many times with them in the car for violations. Undercooking meat, baking without following recipes (rules are for other people) Never once cracked open a baby or child care book. Scoffed at me for reading same.
Unable to meet emotional needs -- couldn't do this at all. Got really, really impatient with me and especially with the DCs when they were small and needed constant attention. He had absolutely no patience for them, no understanding of their immaturity (they cried 'to manipulate' me according to him).

Maths your examples are depressingly similar to my own. It is a chilling realisation to see a common level of behaviour described on here. The NPD thread had faded into the background for a while and I had begun to interact with my ex, had engaged with him over the Christmas period while he was in his Mr. Nice personna. He coaxed me back into a false belief that he was my 'soulmate' and we would always have a bond. Of course, eventually, when I started to argue with his version of history things quickly evaporated. He has thrown a major tantrum since last week when I dared to argue and gave examples of how he was abusive.
Thank god I stayed true to what I have learned and remained adament that I too have a voice. I have come a long way.

Maggie I don't worry too much re my own son. We have a close bond and he will always talk to me. He has difficulties with being part of a group of boys of the same age on the street where we live. He finds their exclusion of him difficult at times because he wants to be included. They play childish mind games which he is not really able for, but will come running to me and I am able to put things in perspective for him. Because of this when the boys knock for him again, as they always will, he is willing enough to join back in again. If nothing else I have erradicated the grudge-bearing that his Dad had become the master of. I encourage my ds to go out there and re-engage with these boys. To give them the benefit of the doubt because they are children who behave in a child-like way, and my ds accepts my explanations about this - he heeds my advice or words and hasn't yet cut himself off socially from these kids.

This is probably the difference between my h and my son. My h's parents would not have had the knowledge or interest in him to encourage or explain what was going on at that level. As a result my h became excluded from forming social relationships during his impressionable years. He became reliant, once again, on his own world. He made his own happiness derived from his sense of self. He developed N traits which came to fruition once he had married me. I became the person who let him down, stopped living up to his perfect picture. Instead of knowing how to re-engage with me he developed full NPD and the rest is history.

I will stop that happening to my son, I love him too much.

Maths you just described my mother to a T.

Phew.
Ive tried hard not to focus on my exh behaviour, instead looking at my own responses, excuses and the reasons why i was willing to tolerate such cruel behaviour.Did i really think so little of myself ?

Imagine this scenario, one i lived with regularly, and fully accepted.
" What you crying for ? Its not as if i do that all the time , or as if its as bad as you make out! Maybe if you werent so frigid i wouldnt do it ,, in fact get to the docters theres something wrong with you , you evil bitch ".
Hey, i accepted this shit.

His word was correct, my opinion nothing.I cant beleive i allowed this fat little man to project this shit onto me, define me, tell me what i think and feel, rewrite history for me until i was so confused and depresssed , so convinced that i was rotton to the core that i frequently considered suicide.

Its been quite painfull and sort of opened up a can of worms for me.I have poor boundaries and dont recognise when people are blurring the lines , i find it hard to assert myself with anyone im emotionally involved with.

Looking back ive spent most of my life putting others first, second guessing myself.I guess i dont know myself very well, evident by the way that ex shit was able to produce such self doubt in me.

Im working on this, but even tonight, i am thinking of two people in my life who regularly manipulate me and push their luck.
There going to get the boot and they can fuck off.

Either i attract these twats or they are everywhere. Ive honestly wondered if this is some sort of test. I spot them quicker, get rid of them earlier, but theyre still there.

Im not sure if i had these problems prior to meeting him or if he caused them.

It was such bad luck to 'fall in love' with someone with NPD. My love for him was just used as a powerful weapon of 'control'. In my personal experience:-

• I was aready 'mentally' damaged from a recent abusive relationship when I got together with my H. My H, therefore, seemed the complete opposite of the previous (pyscho) one.
• As I had no knowledge of any of NPD at that time, I would never have been able to recognise what was happening anyway with the development of my relationship with my H.

In my first marriage I never had to think about the whole issue of 'control'.

Mathanxiety - so many similarities with my H.

When you are with an NPD you lose your personality. They take away your 'spirit'. They do not want you to have your own personality. They just want to control you.[angy]

I think that the thing that drives me most to distraction, is the way he tells me what I am thinking and feeling. It's drives me nuts.....because he's usually wrong.

He does it to other people too, but they only see him for short periods of time, and can just ignore indidvidual statements.

Right from the beginning this has been the thing that caused the most trouble.

I remember being back stage at a show, and I was sitting watching the comings and goings. Perfectly calm and happy, enjoying the business.He told me that I was envious of the people ion the show and that I couldn't bear not being the star. He kept on and on and on. In the end it was a blazing row.

He was talking about himself wasn't he.

All the stuff he's saying to me now, it's him and is feelings, not me and mine. Maybe he can't separate us in his head? I am not a separate, autonomous individual.

Is it projection, or is it more than that?

Thought crime !
Mine does this re telling me what i think. Seems he has special powers that he can read my mind, he just KNOWS what im thinking.

I am in a really shit financial situation, and although i still get stressed and upset, that depressed anxious feeling has long gone.I honestly think i felt his feelings for years , no wonder i felt small, worthless and depressed, its probably how he feels every day.

Ive also noticed that even if im in his company for a short period of time, i start feeling grouchy for no obvious reason and start feeling put out at everyone, freinds, family , in his prescence i am hypervigilant to the smallest slight.

Just 5 minuites in his company, even if hes being nice ( normal ) makes me feel extremeley negative. I wonder if hes radiating some sort of poisenous negativity that seeps into my physche.

I can never relax with my H. I don't ever really remember being at ease with him. I don't think I ever felt close to him - in fact, for a long time, at the start of the relationship, I used to think - 'this is so polite'. I now think it was because the feelings from him were fake. Does anyone else feel like this?

Autumn that is very true actually. When I think back to when I just met my x and when we dated it was all so polite and reserved. It does make me wonder why the hell I bothered pursuing it. I was flattered I think.

that is the way other people still see him. Polite and reserved.

I remember saying to my x "i think I'd like to study to become a midwife". He would say nothing. Like he had no thoughts about that. If I pressed him for an opinion he'd say 'who's going to look after the children and whose going to pay for it?'. And that would be the end of the conversation. But even for far less important issues, if I put an opinion 'out there' so often it would be met with stony silence. So any expression of a personality was frowned on. But yet, sometimes he would scream at me for being 'boring'!!

TRM glad that you're not worried your son will turn into a chip off the old block either. Good for your son for keeping on going out there and being himself. these are tough years. I have it all ahead of me. My little guy is only four and at the moment he's in a class of other boys on the spectrum but he will go to mainstream in 2011, so I may be asking you for tips at some point...

'this is so polite' -
Autumnlight, I remember a lot of the feelings you described in your last post -- looking back, I think he was probably mirroring whatever he saw in me.

Saddest -- this kind of projection also shows a complete lack of boundaries on the N's part. It's a sort of dumping of their worst traits onto someone else so that they can maintain a self-image that is pristine.

Wow. So much power on this page!

TRM, it's good to hear about your son, and how you help him to be comfortable in the real world. Well done, you. I hope you can keep on nurturing your detachment from your ex (and attachment to your new, healthier life).

Autumn and others - Yes, XH never did feel 'close' in the way friends do. I even learned to keep a lid on my feelings during sex. How mad was I? ... Note past tense

Dignified, you've put your finger on the real issue, haven't you. I'm sure it will vary for each of us - in my case, the process of 'healing' myself from the thoughts & expectations my childhood gave me has been a long one. It's still ongoing, of course! These days, though, I really can feel the changes in myself. Most of the conditioning, which made me so accepting and malleable, has gone. Hurrah! My challenge now is to find out which parts of the 'old' me I value and will cherish, and to learn new ways of living that will replace the bad old ones I'm taking out.

My life now is a weird kind of limbo; it has been for ten years. I consider it a reasonable price. At my age now, the healthier, better-balanced part of my life will be much shorter than the fearful, self-denying part. I don't mind. I'm looking forward to it.

Some changes happened almost instantly, though! While Jon and I were still splitting up, I stopped allowing him to "know" my thoughts. In my new angry voice (the strong and steady one), I ordered: "DON'T tell me what I want!" - "DON'T tell me how I feel!" With my new objectivity, I made him wait whilst I counted to ten after he 'pushed my buttons' - then replied sensibly, buttons un-pushed. The funny thing is, he watched me doing this. And respected it. In fact, he often had to supress a little smile. That told me there was nothing accidental about the ways in which he'd controlled me.

The 'me' who fell in love with men who made me nervous; who chose to ignore appalling insults; who allowed friends to steal from me and could be made to doubt the evidence of my own ears and eyes - is no more. The amenable, malleable, enabling strands of my character were so central to my being that they more or less held me together. So I'm currently a psychological jumble of parts! I'm focusing on those of my friendships that do feel good, and which are not defined by use, abuse or need. They're sadly few, but that's what you get for dedicating your soul to the service of others. I'm grateful for them.

I'm still quite frightened of close relationships, although I know I don't need to be. My mind no longer runs along lines that say: "What does this person want from me? How can I make them like me?" The 'me' am I am, now, hears what people tell me about themselves, and doesn't feel duty-bound to ignore it. I'm almost on the verge of believing people might like to have me in their lives, just because.

Bit of a messy essay, I'm afraid. Going to post anyway.

See that? I took the apology out!

I was trying to think back to the start of my marriage today, to try and remember whether I had that 'this is so polite' memory. I actually have a lot of difficulty remembering how I felt at all though, if that makes sense?
The only name that I can put on my feelings early on is 'let down' or disillusioned. I think that after my whirlwind marriage had taken place the first year or two turned out to be, I don't know - just, not what I expected? His huge expectations about 'us' and how I should act within our marriage had begun to emerge. It became very clear to me that I wasn't living up to his ideal and the (initially) subtle criticising had started to break me down.

I do remember being very unhappy but not really knowing why. I also remember finding it difficult to be close to my h, having difficulty just being 'me' around him and being guarded about what I really felt and said because it invariably meant I would be analysed; made to feel that I was somehow in the wrong or inadeqate.

I think this was the superiosity in him coming out. It was never a bragging, showing off superiosity though. After all, he was a humble emmigrant bar-man who had married a university educated teacher. Even his mother had asked him on the eve of our wedding 'You're not just marrying her because she's a teacher, are you?'
No; he had to prove his superiosity by chipping away at my character, by pulling me down and gradually making me doubt everything I may have had a thought or opinion about.

Of course in recent years the subtlety went out the window! He resorted to name calling and laying statements on me - I was lazy and chaotic. I was emotionally cold. I was white trash. Such a devious bastard in the early days though - so clever. Wow. I never saw it until I applied what I'd read on here and started to delve back to those early days.

And talking of keeping things in seperate 'compartments'....When we married we had a very small wedding. 12 guests in total. He had his younger brother and 2 friends there from his side. We had no reception, just left for the airport, arrived in Ireland and that evening I met my mil for the first time. Now that doesn't sound very 'normal', does it?

Grace, your description of " that little smile ", i know it so well.Ive had mine scream hystericly and threaten suicide, when ive yelled stop, quit, hes smirked at me as you describe.
Also when hes tried to gaslight me and ive pointed out that i know what hes doing.
Best of all though, the times when hes succeeeded in getting a reaction, that smug little sickening self satisfied smile.

I like what you say about hearing what people tell you about themselves. Im still catching up on this bit, im a few weeks behind hearing it and processing ( better than a few years though !)

Im honestly wondering if i sometimes see things that arent there in others, or if i am becoming hyper sensitive to charecteristics that suggest a potential abuser. Or else theres a lot of them out there.

In fact thats not true really when i think about it ( damm that negative internal dialouge) In nearly 3 years ive cut 4 people out that i consider potential abusers / manipulaters. Thats hardly thousands is it.
In the same time ive made many new kind , generous freinds. Ive really got to stop this " the world is full of these people " when i know logicly its not. Just seems like it.
There, thats a bit more positive. 4 out of thousands.

Counseller advises regarding him as a teacher, a lesson, what did i learn about myself from knowing him. Im still thinking about this, and to be honest its left me with a feeling that i cannot bank on myself to make apropriate choices for myself.

God, Dignified - it is a hard lesson though isn't it?
I'm still feeling wounded.
I am eventually beginning to get ome more sleep at night, but my head is still whirling.
I put my frustration into burning off energy now. I've taken up swimming again and never has the house looked so clean....

I do think that I will need to see a therapist though. The damage he has done to me is deep rooted. I'm starting to see the last 2 decades through N-educated eyes now, not through the guilt induced state he moulded me into.

What stage in my recovery does that put me at? The shock has finished. Trying to make sense of my life is begining to start.

dignified it was a lesson I've learnt from too. I can't consider my x a teacher, but I now understand that I desperately wanted to conform (to being one half of a couple because I thought I was too old to be single, and I felt I was letting down my parents ) so I prioritised appearing to be happy over being happy. That is why I ignored the warning signs once I did start to hear them loud and louder.

Also, like Autumn I had been dumped by somebody I did love when I was 29 and I though I had taken time to recover from the sadness, and in fact, when I met my npd X I was feeling happy, but there was a chink in my armour obviously. We had a very reserved polite 'courtship' where he acted like a gentleman. And I think my biggest fear back then was to be dumped again suddenly with no idea it was coming, and I must have sensed a clinginess in my X. He certainly didn't let go easily. Before I legged it with the clothes on our backs I'd suggested splitting up!! that is what normal people who can't stand each other do, right! He used to yell 'the f we will" like it wasn't my decision to make. But, as others have said, when he wasn't happy with me he'd say shape up or ship out.

ItsGraceAgain - sex (which rarely occurs any more in my marriage), is a 'mechanical' act for me - which is probably why it is a no-go now for me, as it is a non-emotional act with him. He is devoid of nice emotions and he has killed mine with all the nastiness, including sexual abuse.
I have also taken up swimming and started going to the gym to try to redirect my angry, resentful feelings and also to improve my self-esteem. It was a major step for me to just put on a swimming costume. I wouldn't for years as he had had such an effect on me about my body image being nasty about the way my body was. I have been seeing a therapist for quite a while now to try and sort out all the confusion, but I am still obviously with my NPD H and that is, I realise, like a handicap, but I have to do something positive rather than just feel like a victim any more.

Ps TRM sorry but i smiled at the thought of your x calling you white trash!! what's he? landed gentry!? Interesting that his own mother saw a desire to climb socially in him? 'Are you marrying her because she's a teacher?' So YOU were the university educated half of the couple and he turned around and called you 'white trash'. In normal circumstances that would be so funny you couldn't keep a straight face.

I don't know if my x projected exactly. But he would say things like 'every boss you've ever had fired you' (not true, I'd been co-erced in to resigning once, made redundant once, relocated once) and you failed your driving test and... you've got nothing to show for your years on earth blah blah.. which was all true for me but not for him. But i was the nastiest most negative spin imaginable. I had no degree but I didn't feel like a loser and a quitter. He wanted me to feel like a loser and a quitter. He worked very hard at school and got great qualifications and had a very good job. But he wanted a better one. I was just there to do chores really.

MaggieGreen- well, they think they are superior, especially to their partner. They also try to convince you that you are useless, unimportant, 'weak' (one of my H's favourite words to describe me - but 'bullies' think of themselves as being strong even though they are cowards).

And, yes, they always think they 'call the shots'. Well, they do end up doing that when they have brainwashed their partner and destroyed their partner's personality.

I also had a very 'polite courtship' with my H. I had just come out of a previous nasty relationship with an abusive man who would shout and argue with me all the time, losing his temper, stalking me, violent, etc and the comparison with my H was like going, I thought, into a lovely, tranquil world of being with a nice, polite, intelligent, stable, dependable (caring, ha, ha - I obviously imagined that one) man. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing!!!!!!!

In fact, I now think, even though my H mirrored my behaviour (interested in their partner - initially! considerate, genuine - that's a joke etc), I do think I was so traumatised by the previous one that I would not have seen even quite significant warning signs. I suppose he saw a vulnerability in me. And he has exploited it to its full potential. He was regularly violent for years though, so when you are worn down with psychological and physical abuse as well, they can keep you down very easily.

Another thing he did when we were dating was be incapable, even then, of being straightforward about answering questions. His favourite phrase was 'oh, that's a long story'. That came to be so indicative of his personality. Wanting me to be open, honest etc. but nothing in return.