Is this man running away or just wary?

[hellisempty]

Okay, deep breath, name changed?
I have been casual friends through work with a chap for several years. we never socialised and I never knew his family or anything ? just simply a salesman at work that I chatted to when he made his rounds. We met up again last year after losing touch for a few years and the friendship came straight back but more flirty, cheeky and friendly. We swapped numbers and texted for a couple of weeks. He told me he had a DS who was a year younger than my own and that he?d split with his last GF as she was getting too serious. We arranged to meet up a few times and had ?fun? and it was really nice. Needless to say I fell for him very hard!

He had said he would not let a casual GF meet his son as he was worried about giving him the wrong idea or confusing him which sounded reasonable. The problem is that this man plays hot and cold a lot and I am not sure if I am being strung along or not. I had asked him if I was a casual thing and he said I was very much planned and worst case I was a friend whether I liked it or not!

He invited me to spend New Year?s Eve with him and turned down invites from his family and friends to be with me, then he asked me to go bowling with him and his DS and of course my DS which went really well and I wondered if this meant something? being tested on approval for example? He had already met my son a number of times since I am a single parent and can?t always get childminders and he does ask how he is getting on and has brought treats for him on one occasion.

He surprised me with a visit on a couple of occasions, which was lovely and then gave me a valentine card. I had actually sent him one not knowing if I would see him since he does live quite some distance away from me and I was surprised when he hand delivered me one. Nothing slushy or anything just a funny card with my name written in it.

I asked if he had got mine and he said he had but he had not known if I would get him one and thought it was nice to give. I was not sure if that meant he always intended to get me one or if he was just trying to make it seem like he was not getting me one out of obligation.

The last time I saw him was lovely and he said that he had really enjoyed spending time with me. He said he enjoyed it even when we just chatted and each other?s company. He referred to the bowling day out and said he had a really good time just being with me.

This last week or so I have not heard from him though. He does sometimes go through an illusive phase every now and then and I think that it means he has lost interest but then he is suddenly just the same as normal. Anyway, I got a message last Saturday from him and nothing since. I have sent him 3 text messages this week and not had a reply. He is a busy chap and an active father and he has been away on business so I don?t know if it is just one of those things or if he is dodging me.

I could kick myself for texting now instead of ringing. I never rang for fear of what he might say if I am honest!! But now I cannot ring because it would seem like I am stalking him!!! So?. Is he just a busy chap afraid of commitment and taking 2 steps backwards and 1 step forward or is he actually dropping me?

Sorry it is long!

Hellis...
You aren't really listening...

Tell him the current arrangement does not suit you because you have developed feelings for him.

He either says

1/sorry I can't change blah blah or

2/ok lets try it your way.

You then make sure he acts like a proper boyfriend/live without him and regain your self respect.

When I say I was happy with the way things were I actually do mean that! We had not been doing 'whatever' for very long and I had no desire to rush into anything permanent... as in I have not picked out my engagement ring, booked a wedding venue or chosen our kids names!

I really was happy to take my time and get to know him properly. I actually thought I was trying to do this properly!

Usually I go rushing headlong into something and after a couple months of dating I want to know their thoughts and feelings on where it is going and how they see things progressing etc and they tell me they don't want anything too serious just yet, are happy as things are and the not long after they are off and have met someone else and are happily married with kids before I can blink!

Okay that is a simplistic version of events and not exactly how it is but the principle is the same. I come on too strong and go charging in too quickly even before I have any feelings for the guy and when I say usually blah blah blah I only mean with a couple of guys as I have not done much dating since ex husband (incidentally he told me did not want to do husband and father after he had proposed three times, we got married, had been married for four years and had a DS!!!!)

This time, I thought it was a casual thing which would either lead somewhere or not so I was determined to just concentrate on having fun and seeing what happened... no heaviness, no stressing out just calm

Of course I fell for him very quickly and hard which did not help with that plan and the no contact this week just brought out my usual symptoms of wanting to know every little thing about every little aspect of the situation!

skidoodle... that was a little harsh but quite fair actually. I can see a lot of sense in what you are saying. It hurts but it is fair.

I don't get how I can be so capable at work, how I can be so confident, strong, committed and self assured and able to lead the rest of the company and make the most money etc etc and then in something like this which should be such an easy issue to reconcile for someone used to problem solving and analysis I am completely hopeless!

I keep coming back to one of those really embarrassingly cringeworthy lines you hear on films... you know the one "If you love them set them free...." Maybe this is actually one of those times when the vomit inducing films have it right.

I either tell him shape up or ship off or I simply walk away, endure hours of therapy to understand why I am a complete basket case and then start to live my life again with a bit of confidence and self belief.

And... if it turns out that he is the one for me then he can come and chase me on my terms.

I am scared though. I have done such a good job of pushing all of the pain down over the years from my family and their lack of support or downright selfishness which made me feel so pathetic and worthless to the toxic ex husband and most other men thereafter... I am not sure that the process of releasing all of this and having to analyse my own character and then make a new me is going to be pleasant!

How am I supposed to be a decent single mother in a new area where I know nobody, fit in at a new job and make friends and then be shredded by therapy all at the same time!!

I somehow don't get the impression it is going to be a quick easy fix. And as I am sceptical and clearly my issues are deeprooted I am going to end up fighting it every step of the way...

look how hard I am fighting to keep this man from being the baddie of the piece and how hard i am fighting to find a happy ending in it!!

helli

I really like you and your openess. I imagine you're fun to be with. I'm sure this guy loves spending time with you and you with him.

But he's not planning it to be anything more and is upfront in telling you. That's fine if you feel the same way but you don't.

You deserve more. Please go and make it happen. Whilst with this guy you may be unreceptive to the right guy?

helli I'm sorry if my previous post was harsh.

It's hard to read this thread and not want to bang my head against the wall. For all your protestations that "you're fine" with him not wanting anything hot & heavy... you started this thread and are still (pages and pages and pages) later saying everything's fine.

It's like Lady MacBeth has found a keyboard.

I'm afraid there is no happy ending in sight with this one.

Someone earlier mentioned counselling and I think that might be a really great idea to get a more proportionate sense of self for yourself and re-define what your barriers are. What will you tolerate in your personal life versus what are dealbreakers.

It is really spooky that you mention Lady MacBeth actually!! I have been told before that I have two different sides to me and even that my two sides contradict each other sometimes.

So for fear of being told I have a split personality and need a good long rest in a white padded room....

My last boss said I was a bit like Jekyll and Hyde but not in a bad way!! He said when I was in 'work' mode I was calm, rational, objective, business like, did not give an inch, analysed everything and worked very hard. When I was in 'social mode' he said my voice changed, it got softer, I smiled more, my posture was more casual and I was so friendly and chatty and 'one of the gang' but the second someone mentioned anything to do with work I straightened up, my voice dropped and the smile was gone to be replaced with a look of concentration. I was never aware that I was doing that!

My last BF said that in the beginning I was the most refreshing woman he had ever met in his life and he was so sorry he had never met me sooner as he could not believe a woman could be as wonderful or make someone feel so amazing without trying! He said I was so much fun to be around, he could talk to me for hours - told me some things that he has never ever told anyone else (and after his wedding said he still would not tell his wife the things he told me!) just watching a film with me was great, I was open, honest, non judgemental, passionate, funny, sweet, giving, strong and independent.

Then he said I was like Chinese Water Torture! He said I was like that little drip drip drip that irritates you until you want to kill yourself or everyone else around you! He said I did not do the usual things like nagging etc but he said my curious and inqusitive nature became impossible to keep up with. I always wanted to know the why and how of everything.

He said he had to be so careful how he phrased something because I always picked up on it immediately, I could see right through him, could always spot even the most cleverly constructed lie whether it was just a silly thing like no I did not forget to do something or a big thing like he had lined up his next one before dropping me and he said he felt like he was under the microscope or Spanish Inquisition all of the time.

He said because I offered perfection I expected to get it back and no one could measure up! He said if he had not known I had been royally screwed over by someone else he would have guessed by the fact that I would not tolerate a lie no matter what.

I therefore wonder if I have subconsciously gone the other way with salesman chap. I already liked him as he was and thought he was a very decent bloke as blokes go.

I was still open and honest with him, would tell him whatever he wanted to know whether he would like the answer or not. I still have fun with him and do all of the things that I was told made me refreshing because they are just part of who I am but I did not aanalyse things and question things unless absolutely necessary. My plan was to just 'go along for the ride' and see where it took me instead of trying to guess in advance and plan for where it would take me! I figured that some journeys have destinations and some are just for sight seeing and with some you don't know which you are going to get until you are on them so instead of plotting and planning I would just let it unfold itself.

Not really sure I like where this has brought me though!

As a child, did you always have to "try hard" to please the grown-ups?

All school reports and parents evenings resulted in the same things being said... "hell is a wonderful girl, so sweet and thoughtful and helpful and always tries hard with her work. Talks too much but that aside she can be my daughter anytime" My parents actually stopped going to parents evening when I was about 12 or so because they said there was no point hearing the same things!

When I was younger they thought I was sullen ad stroppy. I would do whatever anyone asked of me but would perhaps have a sulky face and slam a door! I never had tantrums, never answered back and always did what I was told.

When my siblings and I were taken anywhere people thought we were so well behaved because we were polite, spoke only when spoken to, said please and thank you and would sit quietly when the adults were speaking! We were always warned before we went anywhere to behave like that so did!

I did a lot of chores when I was at home - seriously a lot. Cleaned the kichen every night, dishes after every meal, hoovering, polishing, ironing, putting the washing away for everyone, changing all of the beds, washing the windows, walking and feeding the dog, washing the car every weekend, going shopping, fetching and carrying coffee, paper, post, something from upstairs etc, bathing and dressing and feeding my younger siblings - big age gap between us all - and then weekends and evenings when it was light and school holidays I took them out, played with them, watched them whatever while my parents worked. After the rest of my chores and I had put the kids to bed I did my homework every night. If I was finished for 7 I could go out until 8 but had to be home for then and in bed for 8.30 as my parents had both had a long day at work and wanted time for themselves and 'no kids on the floor'.

I never argued, never complained but would walk around with a face tripping me apparently! But I never had to 'try hard' to please them, I just did what I was told and they were pleased!

When I reached about 16 I started seeing a boy and was crazy about him, parents loved him and then thought he had too much control over me because I started answering back and complaining about having no life or time for myself and then they hated him. I got pulled in both directions and rebelled against my parents, went off with the lad and then left him when I just turned 19 for being a waste of space cretin.

I met ex DH a couple weeks after leaving this chap and married him when I was 21. Parents hated him too. He hated them, barely spoke to them, they refused to come to my wedding or let my siblings come and when we visited they would often be out or busy. When we split and it was all horrific I got a bit sympathy from them but it had a shelflife of a couple of weeks and then I had to get a grip of myself, stop moping around because other people have it far worse!

Now I hardly tell my parents anything because I don't see the point. If something bad happened then they will always know someone who had it worse and I should just get on with it. When something good happens they are not interested either. They talk over the top of me when I speak, never listen to anything I have to say or get impatient and tell me to stop being silly etc. They never ring, write, text or email. In fact I have not had my mum ring me since I saw her at Christmas. Dad rang once to tell me about something that happened at his work but as soon as I tried to tell him about my life he had to go because... and I could tell he was not listening by the fact he was not contributing to the conversation!

I tried to talk to my mum the other day but she was busy, going out shopping or something and said she would talk later but I know she won't get back to me. If I never ever contact them they would get annoyed at my selfishness - at the audacity of me not asking how they are and what is happening in their lifes - but they would not think to ask how mine is. They say they would like me to move closer to them but I honestly think that it is so the can see more of DS rather than see more of me and so they can have me back under their thumb and control doing what they want when they want it.

I have always pleased everyone, always bent for everyone, always tried to do the right thing, be a good honest caring person, I don't make waves, I am not controversial for the sake of it, I am not boring either in that I do have strong opinions on things, I know what I like and what I don't but I don't beat anyone over the head with them and respect they are entitled to their opinions.

If I have a strong enough opinion on something I will stand my ground but I was always taught to let the little things go and only fight the battles you can win and really want to win.

And..... Anyone ever seen 'Runaway Bride' Guess who I am??? Yep... I am that character!! I don't like a certain egg because someone else does or anything that silly but unless it is really important to me then I am happy to go along with whatever the other person wants. I will fight my corner if I believe strongly enough - I am not a doormat and would not give in if I really felt it was important - but the little things... I just let go.

This has been a running joke with me and my friends for years - since this film came out actually - that there are similarities though not that extreme with me and her character.

And yes... I am sure there will be eye rolling here but... I honestly felt that with salesman guy I could actually be myself without having to tip toe around him, without having to be careful that what I said was going to make him mad or go charging off in the other direction. I actually felt like I could be the person I am supposed to be and he would respect me for it rather than try to beat me down into what he wanted me to be like.

Thank you VERY much for that, hell. Amazing

Look, I was hoping for something I could maybe work with on a forum here but I can't. There are layers of self-reassurance (for want of a better word) here that I'm sure others can see through as clearly as I do. For youself, though, I think you need to be in a safe place with a counsellor in order to address matters.

In your story I see Cinderella, running around to make her rather selfish parents happy. I see her being "good" and "lovely" to win praise, which was in short supply at home. I think Cinders would have been very cross that she had to be housewife & parent when she was really a little girl. But if she looked cross, she was told off so she learned to hide her real feelings, even from herself.

You don't need to justify your parents' behaviour - you have obviously turned out OK and are sensible enough to realise that moving back to be near them is NOT a good idea! I would like to ask you to think about the effects this type of upbringing can have on a person's self-image, and how it might affect the way they conduct their relationships.

Don't fire off an answer straight away, give it some thought and do some reading around it. Thanks again for your story.

Not really. We usually got a long lecture on how we had disappointed them if we had done something wrong until we cried or we got shouted at and sent to our rooms. Occasionally we would get out bottom smacked. I got my face slapped once when I was about 14. The only time I dared to stand up to my parents and told my mother she was giving me too much to do and I never did it again. We got a smack with the belt once off my dad but cannot remember what we did then. We dd not get smacked that often though, usually the lecture or being shouted at was enough to keep us in check.

I was alway scared of disappointing my parents but my siblings never were so much. I think by the time they came along my parents had mellowed somewhat but I was already in the habit of doing exactly what I was told without question.

We had a good clean home, decent food, decent clothes, toys, friends round, birthday parties, were never locked in cupboards or had anything inappropriate happen to us, always went on school trips, they played with us, took us out, took us on holiday, sang with us, made a fuss at Christmas etc I just think they did not really know how much freedom a child should be given or when enough was enough.

I loved school! I think that is why I do well in work now because I stuck in every day, worked hard and enjoyed it because for me school was like my own personal freedom! I had to do the same as everyone else and all they asked for was that I tried my best but there was a point where my best was good enough I hated school holidays! I always felt like my best was never good enough at home.

If I tried to help with something and did it well it became my job permanently but I could not do something badly because I felt like I was not bein true to myself. I always had to do something well and hated failing which is how I ended up with so much to do every day (obviously not every one of those jobs was done every day!!!)

I hate failing now... I am so stubborn that I will try and try and try and try and then if I still can't do it I wll try something different and I just go on and on and on until it works out.

See this thread for proof of that!!

If you speak to my parents they have a very different view of our childhood. They think they were reasonable, loving parents who tried to teach us right from wrong, looked after us, cared for us and if we were naughty punished us in the only way they knew how. They think giving us chores to do makes us responsible in later life and that we should do thinks around the house to help out.

I have often wondered which one of us was the deluded one. Have I taken events and turned them into something bigger and resent them for a slight that is not as bad as it seems or have they forged memories that bare no resemblance to how we actually felt as children and they think that they did a good job because we turned out fine and are socially respectible people with no criminal backgrounds, drug problems and we work for a living and pay our bills!

I fully see your point... I don't know that it was so much a survival mechanism - I don't think I was lucky to survive and was never beaten to a pulp or anything. However, compliance was used for an easy life.

I did what I was told because it was easier. I was brought up to believe that you respect your parents and they know better so you do as you are told. It was easier to fit in with this than to try and stand up for myself and get nowhere.

In the greater scheme of things, hell, it doesn't matter how your parents see it or why they did what they did. Most bad (or not-very-good) parents had a difficult childhood themselves. The important thing, for each one of us, is what we do with the lessons we learned as children. A lot of the time, in a lot of cases, a bunch of those lessons are better un-learned!

As to validation of your personal experience as a child - you wrote earlier: "I have seen the life one of my siblings had by being near them and it was awful.. the poor soul had no life at all and in the end moved away too."

So: no, you're not seeing it "wrong". Your parents are capable of destroying lives

Please keep posting, and try to read around the subjects of "toxic parents" and "co-dependency". Let us know whenever you recognise yourself

That just all sounds so scary!

To me an abused child was one who was neglected but we wanted for nothing, or a child who was beaten every day and bruised or bleeding but that wasn't us either. No one touched us inappropriately, we were given hugs, kisses and told that we were loved. We weren't locked in cupboards or burned or forced under freezing cold or scalding hot water or any of the other horrid things that are associated with child abuse.

We got treats, our friends thought our parents were great, we had fun and laughed and had regular routines. They were not inappropriate with each other in front of us, they did not swear or get drunk in front of us, no drugs or violence towards each other. My father has never raised his hand to my mother - they do argue at times but raised voices only.

And yet... you guys think I was abused?

I am kinda shocked now and getting worried and a fair bit teary too!

Am I damaged? And if I am damaged is it fixable?

I am early 30's and honestly think that I am going to spend the rest of my life alone because no one will ever love me. No one will ever look at me and think I am special enough to want to be with and I don't want to be alone because I have felt alone for so long.

When I have talked to my parents about this - usually after yet another heartbreak - they tell me to stop being silly and I am only young. But... If I am so isolated how will I meet anyone? if I move to a larger area I will isolate myself more and since I don't make friends easily as I just can't go up to someone and 'become' their friend so how will I meet anyone then? If I am damaged how will I stop history continually repeating itself? How will I ever see any self worth and love myself enough for the 'right' man to love me back?

I have some good friends - just a very small circle of friends because as I said I have never found it easy to make friends on my own unless I was introduced to them by someone else or met them through work. And even though I have these few good friends I always think that they put up with me to be nice rather than they actually really really want to be friends with me. I am harmless, fun, nice and good in a crisis so I am no threat to any of them so therefore they tolerate me.

I turn down invitations and hate social situations because I am so self conscious and worried about making a fool of myself and I actually find it so easy to isolate myself without any help from anyone else. I once lived in a town for two years - a huge town - and I did not make a single friend. The only people I knew in the town were my work colleagues and the playcare workers. The only times I went out were when work had their quarterly social evenings and whilst the were fun I dreaded them because I never felt I fit in.

I have always been afraid of making a fool of myself and always been self conscious and lacked self confidence as a child. My younger siblings are sooo confident compared to me!

And it is really very upsetting that the first person - in I really don't know how many years - who has made me feel special and good about myself and that I was all of the things I want to be - confident, relaxed, sure of myself, powerful, strong etc - is just using me.

I never felt special with my husband. I married him because I liked him and we had fun and I felt safe with him but he did not make me feel like I could fly. Yes I loved him - or at least I think I did and I would have stayed with him forever because it was comfortable. We kept ourselves to ourselves. We lost touch with all of our friends and everything we ever did was together. You never saw one without the other. Right up until the day he was leaving because he was having an affair.

But salesman guy... why bother saying what he is like and how he makes me feel... he is never going to give me what I want! Even if the whole thing is simply because he is scared of committment and he needs a bit of time to sort that out himself... even if he does decide that he wants to settle down again why would he choose me?

There is no good reason for him to because I don't think I am anywhere near his league and think he would be settling with me when he could do so much better. And if I don't think I am worth it then he never will.

But I don't see how someone is going to make me suddenly see myself so much better than I do right now.

Helli
I want to give you a big hug

I have been reading this avidly because I recognise myself in you. My parents were loving but 'strict'

I think this has affected me emotionally but would hesitate to describe myself as abused. I'd also be worried about you being told this is your situation.

There may be parts of your upbringing which leave you vulnerable to this guy and seeking love/reassurance and validation constantly - it doesn't mean you're damaged.

(Hell we are all damaged in some way!!!)

I'd like to see you recognise your own worth - you deserve a guy who will devote himself to you. Just say no to anything less than that as a relationship

Low self esteem patterns and compliance pattens {sad]

clearly I meant patterns there and !!

Why do I deserve a guy who will devote himself to me though? I am clearly fairly messed up and can never get it right. Even with a decent guy I am likely to turn into chinese water torture pyscho girl and scare him off anyway!

And all I ever wanted was for someone to love me for who I am - faults and all - because they thought I was worth it.

I know I have lots of good qualities but I just don't think I am a good enough or complete package to appeal to anyone.

Yes, I can get someone short term or a fling or whatever because I talk the talk but when it comes down to it... I can't follow through.

Sorry that I have not read all of the thread but it sounds like he really likes you as a person but is not convinced about a relationship - you cannot know if that is about "his stuff", fearing for instance that a relationship will become stale if you are properly together or possibly about having some other women on the go where it's much more of a raw, sexual relationship and he has a bit of a Madonna/whore thing going on...or maybe even having feelings towards men and not being able to own that....all speculation but, what I'm trying to say is, if you can't have the open conversation with him, you are never going to be happy with him.

3 months is a very short time to be planning a life together so it's reasonable that he can't say if he envisages staying with you forever but to simply know where you stand - is it monongomous for instance - is a reasonable thing to ask.

As others have said, time to stop worrying about what he wants, no good trying to second guess and be the person he wants - stand up for yourself. As others have said too, he is a salesman and used to giving people want they want - you said he was a giver in bed, does that reflect insecurity or does that reflect control?

You need the right man.
Stop trying to be the right woman.

Part of not keeping a man is to do with choosing guys who aren't right ...like this saleman?

The alternative to accepting the wrong type of guy is to stay single. Tough choice yes ...but by being with the wrong guy you're excluding other possibly 'right' relationships and also reinforcing a poor view of yourself by being treated in this way.

Your questions
Here are my guesses:-

Your co-worker commented on how you seem to switch personalities between the confident, competent business woman & girly, flirty, social pleaser. They even said your voice and posture change when you do this. This is like the two 'sides' of your life as a young girl.

At school you received praise & support. You perceived these as rewards for achieving good results - thus, you feel motivated to achieve in a formal environment, and have confidence in your achievements & abilities. You did not, however, perceive the praise & support as being just for "being you" - though they weren't. You would have received good treatment at school, even if you weren't so bright or hard-working. But your parents devalued the praise you received for your school work; they found it so "boring" they couldn't even be bothered to show any interest.

At home, similarly, you were expected to achieve a great deal - as a child, you carried out the whol family's housekeeping and also took responsibility for your siblings. The little girl you were undertook adult responsibilites, met them satisfactorily and was crticised if she didn't look happy about it. So you learned that being smiley, compliant, and shouldering everyone else's responsibility made life tolerable.

If you look at this little girl's life, you will see that she's a champion little worker. She gets on with everything and everybody. She puts her 'tasks' before pleasure at school and at home. (Did people sometimes tell you had "an old head on young shoulders"? Me, too!) She is always, always smiling. What a little paragon

But what is she lacking, what's she desperate for? Appreciation. She wants to be loved for the little girl she is. When she grows up, she will still act like a little girl around other people. She doesn't quite realise it herself, but she's got stuck there because she still wants to be loved for the little girl she is ...

How am I doing?

You did not, however, perceive the praise & support as being just for "being you" - though they were* !