Is this man running away or just wary?

[hellisempty]

Okay, deep breath, name changed?
I have been casual friends through work with a chap for several years. we never socialised and I never knew his family or anything ? just simply a salesman at work that I chatted to when he made his rounds. We met up again last year after losing touch for a few years and the friendship came straight back but more flirty, cheeky and friendly. We swapped numbers and texted for a couple of weeks. He told me he had a DS who was a year younger than my own and that he?d split with his last GF as she was getting too serious. We arranged to meet up a few times and had ?fun? and it was really nice. Needless to say I fell for him very hard!

He had said he would not let a casual GF meet his son as he was worried about giving him the wrong idea or confusing him which sounded reasonable. The problem is that this man plays hot and cold a lot and I am not sure if I am being strung along or not. I had asked him if I was a casual thing and he said I was very much planned and worst case I was a friend whether I liked it or not!

He invited me to spend New Year?s Eve with him and turned down invites from his family and friends to be with me, then he asked me to go bowling with him and his DS and of course my DS which went really well and I wondered if this meant something? being tested on approval for example? He had already met my son a number of times since I am a single parent and can?t always get childminders and he does ask how he is getting on and has brought treats for him on one occasion.

He surprised me with a visit on a couple of occasions, which was lovely and then gave me a valentine card. I had actually sent him one not knowing if I would see him since he does live quite some distance away from me and I was surprised when he hand delivered me one. Nothing slushy or anything just a funny card with my name written in it.

I asked if he had got mine and he said he had but he had not known if I would get him one and thought it was nice to give. I was not sure if that meant he always intended to get me one or if he was just trying to make it seem like he was not getting me one out of obligation.

The last time I saw him was lovely and he said that he had really enjoyed spending time with me. He said he enjoyed it even when we just chatted and each other?s company. He referred to the bowling day out and said he had a really good time just being with me.

This last week or so I have not heard from him though. He does sometimes go through an illusive phase every now and then and I think that it means he has lost interest but then he is suddenly just the same as normal. Anyway, I got a message last Saturday from him and nothing since. I have sent him 3 text messages this week and not had a reply. He is a busy chap and an active father and he has been away on business so I don?t know if it is just one of those things or if he is dodging me.

I could kick myself for texting now instead of ringing. I never rang for fear of what he might say if I am honest!! But now I cannot ring because it would seem like I am stalking him!!! So?. Is he just a busy chap afraid of commitment and taking 2 steps backwards and 1 step forward or is he actually dropping me?

Sorry it is long!

Glad to hear you thinking a bit more rationally OP.

But remember, this man (any man) isn't a chocolate bar or inanimate object you can use as a fix for your cravings. He's a person with his own wants and needs and they also deserve a bit of consideration, if you're to have a mutually beneficial relationship x

Don't worry, Boudoiricca I realise that. It was meant as a tongue in cheek way to lighten the situation

I am not using him to plug a hole or stave off cravings, I do see him as a worthwhile decent person in his own right with wants and needs and quirks and charms and believe it or not... even faults! shock horror!!

I am trying to take the whole thing into consideration. What he wants - based on what he has said, his lifestyle, what I want, my lifestyle, prospects if any and the impact any and all of this would have on our kids should it work or indeed should it go pete tong as is more likely.

If I am to walk away now I will hurt like hell but I can hide that easily from my DS, I have to consider if I do move closer and try and it still does not work that it might be harder to hide that disappointment from him because I have invested even more into it.

I am trying to be rational and think with my head... not just with my heart

Thanks for your update, OP. I'm very glad you posted details of your conversation because now I have changed my opinion of him.

I mistook him for a shallow, fun-loving individual. Now my thoughts are more sinister, I'm afraid! Shallow I will stick with. As for the rest, I find him extremely manipulative, self-serving and possibly one of the dreaded NPDs who haunt this forum. I suspect the reason you feel so attracted to him is that you're adapted to abusers, certainly thanks to your ex and probably going back further to your childhood.

I know you'll ignore my opinion, so I'm posting the following for reference only.

He said:
"he wishes I was closer so we can see each other more often and when I move closer that will happen"
"he is worried about me getting hurt. He said he does not want to cause me any pain"
"of course you aren't happy. You would rather this was an exclusive relationship"
"he was concerned that I was too adaptable which meant that I might put up with more than I should"
"he sensed something from my tone and I admitted I had rowed with my friend"
"he found me to be very confident and self assured"

You said:
"If he moved to be closer to me ... he would not be able to get a big enough place here for both of us"
"I figure if I am going to get hurt anyway ... what difference does it make when I stop seeing him if I can handle it?"
"I would not take more than I can handle"
"Is it so wrong to hope that if we just continue as we are he could see me as more?"
"I do have low self esteem ... My ex stripped away all vestiges of self worth"
"I have always held high positions in offices, I am very capable and a high achiever"
"I just am one of those people who need the validation of being loved"
"If I could change how I think about things or myself then I would but this is me."

Here are the reasons why these remarks bother me:

1. He is encouraging you to base a major life decision - where to move next - on your relationship (even though he's told you the relationship is non-exclusive & non-committal.)
2. He's introduced the idea that he holds the power to cause you pain.
3. He is telling you how you feel and what you want.
4. He's got your agreement that you will put up with more than you should.
5. He's 'reading your mind' and fastened onto a disagreement with your friend.
6. He considers you a confident, high-status partner.

1. You've already done the maths on whether he could afford a place big enough for all of you (even though he's told you the relationship is non-exclusive & non-committal.)
2. You are accepting of potential hurt.
3. "I can handle it" is what people say when they expect pain (see reply about addicts above.)

10. You've already established that you will settle for less than you want, in the hope of getting more. 11. You see yourself as a worth-less individual, desperate to be loved. 12. You see yourself as incomplete but have accepted that this is how you'll always be.

I feel sad for you, hellisempty.
I do believe you would benefit from more counselling, to help build up your underlying self-worth. Just for now, though, you can very much improve your confidence (not quite the same thing, but it will help.) I recommend this book: "Ultimate Confidence" by Marisa Peer.

wow... I did not see that coming!! What is an NPD?

I have read your post a few times and there are some points I want to address. Firstly, I would not ignore your opinion. I asked for it and you kindly and freely gave it. I do not think it is right or wrong simply the way you see things based on the information you have been given. In the same way that my opinion is not right or wrong it is just based on my own perspective. I appreciate the opinions of others because sometimes it helps to put your own into perspective so thank you.

He is not encouraging me to base a move on the relationship because I was the one who told him I was looking to move because of issues with my company. He asked where to and I gave him a list of 6 areas that covered a circle which I was considering.

One was close to my friend and her husband - not for dependency sakes as they are moving next year but because I knew the area reasonably well. However there are not many companies hiring just at the moment.

One was a major city and coincidentally where he is based out of - only because it has good commuter links and a lot of decent jobs on the go at the moment.

One was his town because it is similar to where I live as in scenic and close to the countryside etc but large enough to have better facilities, transport links, people and prospects than my back of beyond area. I do admit that I had heard of this place and never been before him but that does not make him responsible for liking it.

The other three are similar towns surrounding all of the others. I asked his opinion on one of the large towns - not his - and he said that it was really up to me. I had to choose an area where I thought me and my little one could be happy and make a home and if he could help me he would. He said he was only in his town because it was cheap and close to his son and that there was no discernable other factor to pick it out from any other area.

Regardless of which one of these towns I pick I would be no more than half an hour away from him and the exact same distance from my family as I am now so there is no real factor in which one I chose. I told him I would apply to all areas and move to the one I got a job in that I liked. All have decent schools, playcares and child friendly things for my son so the job and cost of living would be the only factors here. In terms of him, all are close enough that I could see him regularly but all are big enough that if neither of us wanted to see the other we could wander around all day and never bump into the other one! So in this respect, I do not think he is encouraging me in a selfish or self serving manner because the plan was mine in the first place for reasons not connected with him at all.

I hadn't already done the math on whether he could afford a place for both of us because there has never been a need to do that. Even the conversation last night went my way with him saying he wanted to have an exclusive relationship with me there still would have been no need. I would have been moving when I found a job to one of the above areas and living with my son while he remained at his place. There is no way I would be moving in with him any time soon or giving up my independence that completely. Any moving in together plans would be when it was right for all of us, in particular the kids and we were settled in a long term and committed relationship!

The only reason I made that point was because there was some stick over him giving me estate agent lists and I was trying to point out that him moving here was never an option as I would never have wanted to take him away from his son when I could move so much easier with mine and was going to anyway. I think in a relationship there has to be give and take and you do things for the greater good. That little boy doesn't deserve to have his dad taken away from him just because the gesture of him moving for me would have appeased other people. I just don't work that way. And the whole thing was moot anyway!

He didn't really have to read my mind about the disagreement with my friend. the odd use of the word bloody and the use of hmmm and the silence told him enough

I am expecting pain here... no matter what I choose you guys have already told me it is not going to work so I am going to hurt no matter what... the only way I won't hurt is if he changes his mind and gives us a try or if we continue as we are and I go off him myself. So I think it is better to be prepared for the pain and decide which path is going to make me happier and which path I think is worth the pain.

I can't really argue with some of the points you mentioned as I can see where you are coming from.

Some of the things that I have said are really open to interpretation because obviously you guys have not got a word for word conversation just the bits I pulled from it in my own words in some instances and you don't know me or the guy so can only go on what you have been told.

Some strike a nerve which means I have to see some truth in them and I will have to consider the implications of that.

sorry... should have re read this before I posted!!!

"I do admit that I had heard of this place and never been before him but that does not make him responsible for liking it"

should read

I do admit that I had never heard of this place and had never been before meeting him but that does not make him responsible for me liking it!

"Even the conversation last night went my way"

should read

Even if the conversation....

no that was not wishful thinking or a Freudian slip!!

No I would not do that. I have turned people down because I knew I was not into them and did not want to give them false hope. I would not use someone who felt for me just to get laid, I would rather do without than hurt someone unnecessarily.

I guess I must be blinkered because I just don't see him using me. We both have fun and in fairness a 6 hour return journey after an 8 hour working day does not make me the easiest lay in the world.

I do not think many men would do that just on the off chance of getting a shag! He loves in a huge area surrounded by lots of towns - he could find someone for a quick shag so much easier and still be tucked up in bed afterwards quicker than he could come to see me, charm me, get what he wants and then travel home again!

He has done all of that - come to see me and not had sex! He just wanted to come and have dinner and chat and relax together. We do not have sex every time we see each other - okay, most of the time - but not all of the time.

However... the casual non exclusive relationship with no future comment... yep I accept that.

I think one of the big problems here really is down to my feelings for the guy. He has been honest with me about what he wants and I have been honest with him about what I want. However, I said I would accept less which I agree perhaps in hindsight was not smart. But... If I had not fallen for him then this whole thing would have been fine.

We would have seen each other as and when, both got what we wanted, had fun and it would have either gone somewhere or faded out as casual things often do.

But no... stupidhead here had to go and fall for the unavailable man!

Bizarrely.... there was another bloke who I had one date with the week before salesman chap asked me out! He was nice, pleasant, we laughed, I was comfortable etc and we chatted afterwards. I met him through a mutual friend and we just chatted for a month before he said he wanted to take me out for a coffee much to my surprise.

He had said he was interested in taking it further and was really keen but I said no. He was a bit older than me, not my type at all and whilst I could visualise me having a reasonably happy life I could not see any spark or passion and I could not imagine sex with him at all. Salesman bloke knew about him as he saw flowers he had sent for my birthday and just said it was a nice gesture and he bet they made me smile - which they did.

He asked if I liked the guy and I said I did but that I did not feel a spark and he made no comment. Salesman chap and I had only had a drink at that point and had chatted - nothing had happened but I had felt an instant spark with him so chose him instead of the other guy.

Kind of ironic how things turn out! I still maintain the other guy was probably not right for me and I was right not to use him because I did not feel comfortable doing so but still.... He does not speak to me at all now. He was not happy when I chose the other guy over him. He said he wanted to be friends but then could not handle it and one day just stopped speaking altogether.

Just rambling now!

hellisempty, take a look inside this book on Amazon: "The Manipulative Man" by Dorothy McCoy. See if you recognise anybody.

I am sorry, I just don't see him manipulating me. I have made my own choices for example moving was my choice and mine alone taken before him just not actioned yet as I am still job hunting.

My ex was an expert at manipulation, lies, deceit. He always got into trouble and could always talk his way out of it. When something went wrong he was so good at making everyone think it was their fault and he was innocent. Even when he got into serious trouble and all of the evidence was stacked against him he managed to convince a court that he was a poor hard done by chap and got away with it all. Nothing ever sticks to him.... ever even to this day.

This guy is different. Okay, maybe I have to accept that I am not going to get what I want from him, maybe I have to accept that casual means casual and does not mean casual until it turns to something else... but really the guy has not done anything wrong other than being a bit thoughtless with the original phone incident.

He has been nice, kind, thoughtful, attentive, honest, caring, funny and good company. He asks how my ds is getting on, tells me about his, talks about his family, doesn't hide anything from me - if I want to know I ask.

I have just chosen not to ask the questions that I did not want the answers to because up until this week with the phone incident I was happy as things were.

Having had a bad marriage I have no wish to rush into another one for my sake and for my ds's sake and taking things slowly seemed a good plan to me. He has been honest that he does not want anything more at this time. And I have to face the fact that this may never change.

I am trying to decide how I want to deal with this and I am dithering between walking away and seeing what happens. The thing that was hurting me was the not knowing but now I do know and strangely I feel better for it. I actually feel lighter and happier knowing the situation because it is easier to deal with something when you know what you are dealing with!

That still does not mean that I will accept less. I would have rather had casual and slow and if it lead somewhere great and if not then fair enough - not every relationship does but to know 100% rather than just suspecting that it is not going to go somewhere does rather change the goalposts.

I need to know if I can reign myself in enough, if I am happy to take mr right now or if I would be happier cutting loose and moving on.

I will make that decision and I will consider what everyone has said. But in the grnd scheme of things, this guy is not the devil and I am not a bad person either... we are just two people who like each other albeit in different ways and caught in a situation which has gotten tangled because feelings got involved.

Salesman guy did not only make a move because someone else liked me first. Every single time we saw each other over a period of several years he asked me out to lunch. Friendship at first and something else later... whatever but every time.

Due to work committments and the fact that I usually worked through my lunch to collect DS from school I was unable to. I did once not long after my split from ex Dh go to a sandwich shop with him to get some lunch which I was going to eat at my desk... ex DH saw us together and had a fit and after that I just avoided salesman guy in that way.

This poor bloke was accosted in a shop by my ex and his current GF who he had left me for by that point and it was just insane! I figured since nothing had happened with this guy and he did have to come to our company as a guest and work with both of us (me and the ex) that it was easier to just do nothing than get hassled at work and for him to get hassle. If I am honest I thought that anyone who got accosted like that would think I was not worth the hassle because no one wants to get caught up in someone else's messy split.

I now work in a sister company so nowhere near ex just so you know and this is how I met up with salesman guy again. He said - when I asked him about that incident - that he was not really bothered. He thought it was pathetic and that I should not have worried what my ex did since it reflected badly on him and not me.

When I met up with him again last year he asked me out to lunch twice before I accepted. The first time was before I had gone out with the other chap and the second time was after I had gone out with the other chap. He did not know about the other chap until he came to my house after we had been for a drink and saw the flowers. I then told him about it.

I think perhaps my feelings are clouding things a touch. This guy has essentially done nothing wrong so I feel the need to explain away things so he does not come out of this looking like a total monster because he is not one!

He has always behaved well towards me and the fact that he does not want to be in a committed relationship with me is hardly a blame thing. He has that right whether I like it or not.

However... which is more important to me at this moment - protecting myself now and walking away to maintain some dignity and to get the upper hand or enjoying myself with this man for as long as it lasts?

Problem is... could I enjoy myself enough to make it worth while or would I always be waiting and on guard for the end and always on edge expecting him to hurt me... that is probably counter productive too and I would end up making myself miserable and probably him too.

I am just so confused. I know what I should do but what I want to do is a totally different thing.

If he had really wanted to or thought about it he could have looked up my work number and then called me. He would have had to look it up since his office staff make all the sales calls or we call a centralised office and ask for a sales call and they just sent the guy who covers that area so he never actually rings us himself. Failing that he would have had to ask his office staff for the number.

Feelings don't always get involved in a sexual relationship... I have slept with guys I liked but did not want to be with in the long run but yes.... I see what you are saying.

If I want to guarantee that I won't get hurt then I will walk away... but I think I could end up regretting giving up.

My heart has been broken before and it healed... it would heal again and there is no guarantee that it would get broken this time even if he never changed his mind and it was always a casual thing until the day it ended. I was hurting because of the not knowing... now I know... maybe I could use this information to arm myself so that the end - if indeed there is an end - is not a painful shock and is more on my terms instead of his.

You cannot go through life avoiding everything that could cause you pain because otherwise you would never experience anything.

Yes, I understand what everyone is saying in that I should not deliberately lie down in front of a bus and then be surprised when it hurts me but at the same time... sometimes you have to take risks to experience something or to get what you want and whether you get it or not is not really the point since we do not always get what we want out of life but try anyway.

I have to weigh the good against the bad here... the bad is obvious to everyone. The good is how I feel and the fun we have - not just talking about sex here, I mean the conversation and laughs, and watching films, and listening to music and having dinner together etc.

Am I prepared to take that risk... I do not honestly know for sure.

In my experience once this dynamic starts the 'fun' is over, you will find yourself desperate to try to please him/pin him down, he becomes increasingly distant. Maybe that's just me!

That is a good point actually.

I do know where you are coming from - rural, single parent, etc etc - though I am a fair bit older so you can imagine my choice of crumpet lol

Yes rural life can be wonderful at times, so simplistic and innocent but other times it can be hell. The nice single ones get out as fast as they can and around here all that seem to be left are happily married ones, the unhappily married ones who try to get their leg over with any bit of skirt - no thank you - and the idiots who do not have the brains to do anything other than get drunk at their local every night and go home to a home cooked meal by mummy! Not trying to be controversial but I have lived here for about 12 years now and that really is what it is like!

My ds will be okay no matter what, I always see to it that he is okay. Believe me, after what his father did I have gotten pretty good at doing the 'everything is fine' routine for him.

When the trouble happened with his dad I did not cope very well at all - complete hysterical basket case - and my ds was very distraught and would not go near his dad for almost 6 months afterwards for fear of him upsetting me again. I realised that I was being selfish to let him see his dad upset me and that it could affect him in later life so I stopped thinking about me and started behaving like his parent again. No matter what I was going to be calm and loving and friendly and happy and supportive for him and encourage him to have proper relations with his dad and no matter what his dad through at me I did not waver from encouraging my son to see his dad and to love his dad and respect him as much as he did me (in hindsight I wonder why I bothered just for his dad to say he never wanted to see him again to the point of blanking him when he has occasionally bumped into him). I did not want to influence my son or affect him in anyway just because I was unhappy.

So now... even if I feel like dying inside he does not know it and never will.

That could even be part of my problem as I do sometimes think that I masked the pain too quickly all those years ago. It was too inconvenient for everyone close to me to go through the pain with me. It was uncomfortable for family and friends if I was unhappy or if I cried or if I wanted to talk about it. They could not understand why I was hurt because I was 'well rid of him' and why I was not just getting over it. I had not realised that grief and pain had a shelf life but apparently so and in the end I just stopped expectly support or sympathy or sometimes even a kind word. I put on the brave face, pushed the pain to one side and got on with things for their benefit.

So I really am a dab hand at the pretending everything is okay routine. Night time would be different of course.... I could cry on my own because no one would be inconvenienced by that... come morning time... all bright and fresh again!

I don't cry now of course... that is all in the past and my life is actually a lot happier without him in it. I realise that I am a happier person without him and a different person who is not stifled or controlled by him. I spent a few years hiding out from relationships after him just trying to get to know me and understand what I would want and where I want my life to go.

Sadly, since coming out of hibernation as it was I have not done so well with the man picking. The first one had the exact same characteristics as my ex but just presented in a different way, the next one was just as selfish and quite an 'ugg' but honest with it so I thought that was refreshing at the time. However the whole 'tear you down to make him feel better routine' and his personal brand of brutal honesty were not so refreshing. I went back to the drawing board after him!

Salesman guy really is a lovely guy compared to pretty much every guy I have ever met in my life. He is not going to beat the crap out of me, steal, lie, tear me down to make himself feel better, he is decent, kind, sweet, encouraging, affectionate, funny, charming, intelligent, hard working and a really good active father on very good terms with his ex for the sake of their DS. He makes me feel good about myself when I am with him, I feel so happy and contented and exhilerated and excited like every nerve is on fire whenever he is near me and honestly.... if I had to describe the perfect guy for me he would fit every single box...

Everyone at my work thought there was something there with us. When he came in early last year they said he only had eyes for me, he was polite and friendly to them but never took his eyes off me, he procrasinated just to stay and talk to me longer and he was flirty and cute. The next time he came in one of the girls who was not usually in at that time and had therefore never met him said afterwards that she thought we were a couple. She said she could see the sparks and chemistry flying everywhere and again, he only had eyes for me!

Alas.... on top of all of those wonderful characteristics he has a flaw... the one stumbling block that I may not be able to get past and that is that he does not want a committment.

Why!!!!! Is it so wrong to want the perfect guy to well... be perfect! Geez we all have flaws and I have always been an 'accept them if the rest of the package is worth it' kind of girl rather than trying to change someone into my idea of what they should be like but for some reason... I am trying to change this guy simply because he has affected me so much and I really thought that there could be something there.

My dad told me that I should not settle for less than I deserve and that I should find a really decent one who made me happy and give it my all - he never liked my ex DH and thought he was beneath me - so I heeded his advice and this is the first guy that I would have actually been happy to take him to meet my dad.

big, big unhappy (because there is no one else around!!!) sigh!

thanks for that anothermum92. I have considered counselling in the past as I do seem to suffer from low self esteem and a lack of self confidence in this one aspect of my life. Stick me in an office and you would not see a more confident, self assured woman capable of doing whatever had to be done but stick me in front of a man and the self doubt creeps in.

I have tried to talk to my parents about it but I just end up feeling small and pathetic and it never achieves anything.

My worry with counselling is that from what I have been told by others it is a case of me doing a lot of talking, soul searching and trying to find the answers myself. Well I have never found them with years of mulling it over so far so how will someone else asking the same questions as I have asked myself make a difference?

I just can't see how me working around and around a situation is going to suddenly make me a confident person or make me have self worth. I am very stubborn - as can be seen on here and when I think I am right I dig my heels in and no amount of opinions are going to change my mind until I am ready to change it myself.

I know it sounds pathetic but a man tore me down and whilst I was able to rebuild myself so far I seem to be in a place where I need a man to just add those extra bricks on. I have tried and tried to find enough reasons in myself to be confident but I just think if other people cannot see self worth or see something special in me then perhaps there is nothing special there to see.

I am not a horrible person. I don't lie or steal or cheat. I help where I can, I try to live a good life, I love my family and friends, my DS is the most important person in my life, I work hard, I am capable at work, I am intelligent (honestly ) I am caring, considerate, my friends can count on me when they are in pain or need, I don't turn the other cheek, I am tolerant, supportive, fiesty, strong in lots of ways (though clearly not this way!), passionate, loving, giving... blah blah... so I do know that I have good points but they do not make me stand out in a crowd! Who I am does not make someone want to go the extra mile for... family, friends or partner... I am forgettable - I guess like that plant in the corner... your forget to water it or feed it but the thing never dies and looks just the same and is forgiving when you suddenly overwater it out of guilt. That is me!

I actually do feel like I need someone to find that little hidden extra that makes them think hang on a minute... this girl is amazing!

If anyone has any counselling experience and can verify that my thoughts on it are not accurate then I am willing to listen.

I am always willing to listen to opinions and again, I thank you for them I just seem to be one of those people who can over analyse every situation and turn it around no matter what!