Is this man running away or just wary?

[hellisempty]

Okay, deep breath, name changed?
I have been casual friends through work with a chap for several years. we never socialised and I never knew his family or anything ? just simply a salesman at work that I chatted to when he made his rounds. We met up again last year after losing touch for a few years and the friendship came straight back but more flirty, cheeky and friendly. We swapped numbers and texted for a couple of weeks. He told me he had a DS who was a year younger than my own and that he?d split with his last GF as she was getting too serious. We arranged to meet up a few times and had ?fun? and it was really nice. Needless to say I fell for him very hard!

He had said he would not let a casual GF meet his son as he was worried about giving him the wrong idea or confusing him which sounded reasonable. The problem is that this man plays hot and cold a lot and I am not sure if I am being strung along or not. I had asked him if I was a casual thing and he said I was very much planned and worst case I was a friend whether I liked it or not!

He invited me to spend New Year?s Eve with him and turned down invites from his family and friends to be with me, then he asked me to go bowling with him and his DS and of course my DS which went really well and I wondered if this meant something? being tested on approval for example? He had already met my son a number of times since I am a single parent and can?t always get childminders and he does ask how he is getting on and has brought treats for him on one occasion.

He surprised me with a visit on a couple of occasions, which was lovely and then gave me a valentine card. I had actually sent him one not knowing if I would see him since he does live quite some distance away from me and I was surprised when he hand delivered me one. Nothing slushy or anything just a funny card with my name written in it.

I asked if he had got mine and he said he had but he had not known if I would get him one and thought it was nice to give. I was not sure if that meant he always intended to get me one or if he was just trying to make it seem like he was not getting me one out of obligation.

The last time I saw him was lovely and he said that he had really enjoyed spending time with me. He said he enjoyed it even when we just chatted and each other?s company. He referred to the bowling day out and said he had a really good time just being with me.

This last week or so I have not heard from him though. He does sometimes go through an illusive phase every now and then and I think that it means he has lost interest but then he is suddenly just the same as normal. Anyway, I got a message last Saturday from him and nothing since. I have sent him 3 text messages this week and not had a reply. He is a busy chap and an active father and he has been away on business so I don?t know if it is just one of those things or if he is dodging me.

I could kick myself for texting now instead of ringing. I never rang for fear of what he might say if I am honest!! But now I cannot ring because it would seem like I am stalking him!!! So?. Is he just a busy chap afraid of commitment and taking 2 steps backwards and 1 step forward or is he actually dropping me?

Sorry it is long!

You know, moving house is the best thing you could possibly do. If yo u are lonely, bored, isolated and desperate where you are. then move to somewhere with lots of people and things to do. However, move in the opposite direction to this man. Who, whether he is an opportunistic arsehole or an unimaginative berk who is just happy to get sex where he can, is NOT! NOT! NOT! your future. If you go and live somewhere with social opportunties, FFS pick the ones that actually interest you and offer more than just potential dates - if you carry on down this needy, desperate, path yo uwill end up encountering worse than commitment-resistant chancers.

I am sorry that I am irritating you, maybe I am just not explaining things properly. I know I am not in a relationship with him I was simply saying that if I had to describe my ideal guy the person he is would be it!

We all have things that 'do it' for us such as some people like a sense of humour, some like dark hair, some prefer sense of humour etc... who we end up with may not actually bare any resemblance to the sort of man we pictured but all I am saying is that my picture of the ideal man is someone with his traits and personality. However in my ideal world they would like me back.

That is the gutting part... that I actually met someone who matches the kind of person I thought I would want to be with but they do not like me back in the way that I would want them to.

Flaw was the wrong way to put that... it is not a flaw in his character, you are right it is a choice and one that he is entitled to make for whatever reason.

In fairness if my DS is going to think women do not deserve respect his father's behaviour would have a lot to do with it and not just all be down to my failed relationships or choices in that area! I have a good relationship with my son and we talk so I am sure if he is worried or concerned I would know about it but I take on board what you are saying. I would never want him to suffer because of a choice I made and I do always consider his feelings and the impact on him.

Believe me... I know heartbreak isn't something to be toyed with and I don't want to have my heart broken but at the same time I cannot stop actually wanting to be with this man instantly just because it isn't going to be what I hoped.

The feeling and desire is still there and even if I said right now I shall never see or speak to him again I would still have feelings for him and would have to wait for them to go in time so I am in a situation where I would have to heal no matter what I do.

"If anyone has any counselling experience and can verify that my thoughts on it are not accurate then I am willing to listen."

Lovely, at least half the people in this forum have had or are having counselling. Actually, you don't "have" therapy, you "do" it. The point of a therapist is that, with extensive knowledge and experience, she can lead your thoughts in helpful directions: always quicker than you could have done it by yourself, and often in directions you may never have thought of.

Here's what a good therapist does:-

If you look up "neural pathways", you will find that they are physical connections within the brain. Throughout our lives, we create new pathways in our brains. Although they are real, visible things - we create the pathways with our thoughts & actions. No two people have the same network of neural pathways.

Habits that we've had for a very long time create deep pathways (that you can see with the naked eye!) and this is why it's hard to break old patterns of thought & behaviour. You can choose what new pathways to create, by deciding to adopt a new way of thinking and/or acting. With practise, the new pathways become established. Old, unused ones smooth away over time.

As you can imagine, it's hard for anybody to see how their own pathways could be changed. Since we only have our own brain to think with, that brain is the least likely to spot where new pathways could be made - or even why it may be a good idea! Rather as if you were driving up the M1: driving along there, you can't see what the nearby villages are like, or whether it might be good to have a new road going there.

A good therapist will help you see which 'old' patterns are unhelpful to you in the long run - and is skilled in helping you to develop new, better ones

solid... I have actually considered moving closer to my family which is in the opposite direction to this man. It was my back up plan in case I did not find a job in any of my other areas because I know they would be happy to see more of DS and they would be more than happy to help with childcare - something they have said before - which gives me better options for jobs. At the moment I am limited to the hours I can work everywhere seems to want to operate later and longer for their customer's convenience... not convenient to me!!!

The only thing that stopped me is that some members of my family can be very controlling, domineering and overbearing to the point of actually taking over your life and running it for you! As this would be a bigger relocation - different country - I would be reliant on them for a while and this scares me! It is their way or no way no matter what. Discussions are pointless at times as they always know best.

Other members are lovely and supportive but I just worry in case I end up swapping one bad situation for another just of a different making. I have seen the life one of my siblings had by being near them and it was awful.. the poor soul had no life at all and in the end moved away too. I don't want to go back to having to fight someone for control of my own life or ds.

But... it is still my back up plan if desperate times call for desperate measures!

HIE: OK, so moving nearer your family, if they are bullies, is a bad idea. Moving somewhere else is a good one, though. TBH rural areas are not great for the single-seeking-partners (or anyone 'unusual' for that matter), so basically - move somewhere populated.

Grace.... right... so not the impression I have been given at all then. So how does one go about this?

Single mother lacking in funds... no way I can fit a therapist into my budget unless I sell my about to die a death car and learn to flap my arms very fast or pimp myself.... probably not a good idea to go down that line - in enough trouble as it is

Can you do it on the NHS with an exemption certificate or is it only a pay per visit sort of thing? (obviously I am UK based)

I had one counselling session many years ago at university when my boyfriend had decided that beating my head against a wall was a good idea - someone offered him something in a nightclub and stupidly he took it and got a huge paranoia attack and thought I was laughing at him! It scared me witless at the time and thankfully he became a huge anti drugs advocate after that. I ditched him because it freaked me so much. We still chat a couple times a year and he is happily married, has been for about 8 or 9 years with a couple of kids... anyway... the point was, the uni offered it to me so I went along and it was just all waffle.

How did you feel when he was hitting your head off the wall? err... sore??? and do you think this will affect you long term? do you need us to sign off some coursework for you while you recover? err...???

So I never went again and it painted a bad imagine for me. In hindsight they were probably not trained counsellors at all and were likely only older uni students themselves!

So if it is not a case of let's all hold hands and think positive thoughts and deep breathing exercises then I would definitely consider it.

Solid: like I said... last resort! As I have said, I have been looking into moving to a more populated area for some time.

I only remained here after my marriage break up so the little one could have a relationship with his father but since he no longer bothers for his own reason then I do not feel guilty at moving away.

Rural life was great once but it is not working out so well now. There is a lot a like such as the peace and quiet, the scenery, the easy safe life but that is not enough anymore.

I have never been a town person but I do think I have to bite the bullet and go for the sake of my sanity!! Peace and quiet is a lovely think until you have it all the time!

I think my six areas are good choices because they are bigger and more socially active areas which would open up more doors to me once I am established. I am aware that once I move away from my friends I will have isolated myself in a different way for a while and so one of the reasons for those areas so so that I was still close enough to visit at weekends without long expeditions. To move in the opposite direction of this man either means down towards my family or up across the country where I would be out of touch with everyone.

He will still be travelling with his job and I would still be at least 30 miles away from his home anyway so I doubt he is going to suddenly drop in constantly when I move and I certainly could not do that with my son so I think I would be quite safe.

However... I will get the map out tomorrow and have a look to see if there are any other areas I have not given enough consideration to just in case

Heh, I see where you got your rubbish idea about counsellors! Yes, they probably were students with a week of training ...

Getting NHS counselling is a bit of a postcode lottery. The mental health services where I live are absolutely great - very likely because of all the frustrated & lonely people living out here! So do try your local GP. You might have to lay it on a bit thick about how distressed you are. Another idea is your workplace, if they have an occupational health scheme. You can usually get a course of CBT quite easily from them (before you resign )

I am sure other Mumsnetters know of more ways to access free/cheap counselling; hope some of them pipe up for you later

Have a go with that confidence book, too!

So now that you know he's seeing other women as well as you have you changed your mind on the whole "not sharing" thing?

You like this man you're prepared to be one of a few?

My work doesn't have any kind of scheme unfortunately but we do have a carpet with masking tape holding it together and bubble wrap over a window to keep the wind out

It would therefore have to be organised through my GP or at my own expense and there is no way I can afford that unless we are talking £10 a week!

The only other way I could afford it would be to put my plans for moving on hold and I think that would be a bad idea. I think staying here would be detrimental most importantly because if I stay too long I won't have a job anyway! (my employer is winding the company down, he has already sold the majority share of it and this is now being relocated to another country and it is only a matter of time before the rest goes so I have to find another job before that happens!)

I don't really know where I stand on the 'not sharing' issue. If I was dating someone and we can agreed on exclusivity then him seeing someone else would be cheating and I would be gone no matter how much I liked him. I will not put up with that (see ex DH for that one!)

However, when we started it was only a casual thing, I thought the distance would make anything else almost impossible and I saw it as just two people who like each other having a bit of mutual fun and company so as far as I was concerned we were both free to see whoever we wanted or do whatever we wanted - obviously carefully!!) I had chances to do what I wanted with other people but I chose not to because they really didn't do it for me. I did not give any thought to whether he would see others or choose not to as it did not seem important at the time.

I obviously thought it would be just a short casual fling that would burn out very quickly. I did not expect interest on either side to continue very long - not through lack of self confidence just simply because of the nature of the whole thing - and as I have said before if all he wanted was a fling he could get it so much easier elsewhere with someone that he did not have to travel 6 hours to see or that did not have to be planned out like a military operation before hand so the novelty would wear off quickly for him and I would lose interest with the whole 'out of sight, out of mind' principle.

That did not happen. He did not lose interest as he still wants to see me and I clearly did not lose interest and instead fell for him. The issue is that for him the rules have not changed, it is still a casual thing with someone he likes who he will see when he can... if she allowed it!!!!!!

The rules changed for me as soon as I developed feelings for him. The question for me is could I continue knowing that his rules did not change and he still considers himself free to do what he wants. Could I adopt the same matter of fact approach and not focus solely on the notion of him suddenly waking up one day and thinking 'By God she is the one!!' since the changes of that happening are somewhere close to zero!

I don't know the answer. I know that common sense says that if I cannot handle not being the only one and if I cannot handle him having no feelings for me and if I don't want to get hurt then I should walk away. If it turns out that he actually does want to be with me and was just scared then he knows where I am and can come and find me.... I would not be banking on that happening!

But wanting someone is not always common sense! The heart wants what the heart wants and regardless of which way I go here I will be hurt.

I have decided not to contact him again though. Since I can't text anyway it is not much of a stretch not to ring so I will leave things for now, give myself some breathing room to try and think this all through sensibly and decide what I really want and what the consequences of each decision will be. He knows where I am so if he wants to speak to me he can. He has my number now so can ring if he wants. If I am not chasing him he will either miss me or not. Whilst I am sure that people will be screaming not! at their screens now... not contacting him is really the best I can manage right now!

Believe me it will take a lot of will power not to contact him but I will do it because that is the closest I can come to cutting off all contact.... because no matter what the logical thing is here, I just don't want to never see him again. Not contacting him may well produce the same end result but it does not feel so bad somehow!

"I did not give any thought to whether he would see others or choose not to as it did not seem important at the time."

But now that he's as good as told you that he is currently sleeping with other people, how do you feel about that?

Not particularly happy but not wailing in hysterics either.

I had to go back and check my earlier posts as I thought I had mentioned this already but clearly not!

Deep breath... (dons fire retardant clothing) he has already told me about his sexual habits because I asked. He sleeps with two girls me and one other. He said that he has never been a fan of going to a pub or club or whatever and picking up a stranger. I think he had a few one night stands after his marriage ended but they left him cold.

So.... He was seeing two girls before me. They were friends and they all knew about each other and it was one of those 'friends with benefits' arrangements for them all - though not at the same time!!

If one of them was in the mood then they would simply pick up the phone and arrange something. Easy, no pressure and none of them want or expect anything else.

One of the girls has since started seeing someone else exclusively so salesman chap and her don't see each other anymore. The other girl sees other guys.

I asked if I was simply replacing the girl who he no longers sees and he said 'God, no!!' He hardly saw her much anyway, maybe twice a year if that and it was just one of those 'friend have dinner, have sex, "enjoy your life, bye"'kind of things but now that she is dating properly they won't see each other in that way anymore and that was mutually understood between them all.

He said that with me, he likes me, really enjoys my company, enjoys spending time with me and whilst he does want to sleep with me he would be just as happy talking, enjoying my company and having a little kiss before going home. He said that he is fine for us to enjoy each other mutually but he does not want me to feel used in anyway at all. He said again about the bowling incident with his son in that he thoroughly enjoyed the day because it was fun just laughing and chatting and flirting a bit and having that spark and if that was all he ever got from me he would still want to see me. Not sure it makes any difference but the last time I saw him we did not have sex. Heavy petting yeah, but no sex.

He said that he does not 'get action' anywhere near as often as he thinks that I think he does! He said he is so busy he does not really have much time for anything. He has his son on Mondays, Thursdays, Sundays and often on a Saturday too and he does classes on Mondays, Tuesdays and Fridays (the Monday one is just a new class) and with the fact he travels with his job he often finds he does not get home til late, the out for his class, home for food and then straight to bed. He is trying to renovate his flat in his spare time too so he said relationships and women are just not something he has much time for.

Oh dear, I must have missed the part about him admitting to having other 'friends with benefits'. I honestly think you shouldn't become a member of his harem. The same thing was said to me by my Salesman and I haven't spoken to him since.

so even if you had a commitment (which you haven't), you could only see him on Wednesday nights and some weekends?

Well no, because some of those Wednesndays and weekends he'd be with the other woman he's seeing.

Dittany, she's going to ask her GP about counselling but has no money to pay for treatment.

Any ideas on how to access free (or very cheap) therapy to high standards? Out of my range, I'm afraid.

The argument with my friend was not as clear cut as it sounds, a lot more to it and not an argument because she was trying to protect me! But that aside.... yes I do have to fit around his schedule somewhat. It was the case that I could see him on a Monday or a Wednesday and at weekends it depended on his son. The bowling took place on a Sunday when he had his son.

When I have seen him outside of those times then the visits have only been a few hours so he could get back for things. For example his surprise visit was on a Thursday and I could only see him for two hours so that he had time to get back to his town for picking up his son.

I admit that I find that frustrating - not fitting around his son, I am fine with that because I think it is wonderful that he is an active father - but having to plan everything in advance and knowing that it could still be in vain. For example he covers a wide geographical area and he is off the clock at 5 but that does not mean that he is anywhere near home at that time!

Like I said... I was not bothered about his 'other arrangements' in the beginning because I never thought it was going to go anywhere and I was entitled to do the same if I wanted.

When I started to develop feelings for him I kinda hoped that he would do the same for me in time and at that point drop the other woman but I never pushed or asked or mentioned it because I was okay with the way things were. I was okay just plodding on and enjoying each other's company and was content to see what happened. I figured that when it became an issue for me and I actually wanted to have more that I would have 'the conversation' at the appropriate time... this was obviously before the phone incident this week which was the catalyst for this post.

Now everything has been dragged forward into the cold light of day and I am having to deal with the issues a lot sooner than I hoped.

Good point though... I could try just having a friendship with him. Leave the next lot of contact to him and see if he bothers. If he does not then that really does leave me in no doubt whatsoever (I know you think I should not be in doubt now!!) and if he does contact me then try him at his word. See if he does want to spend time with me just chatting and having dinner and so on.

If he then got bored of that and pushed for more or stopped seeing me then he really was not interested in me as a person more what he could get!

If he was happy to continue with that then who knows what would happen in the future.

I am worried about choosing a whole new area away from all family and friends that I would just isolate myself even more, end up lonelier than I am and then end up jumping at the first predator man who looks in my direction.

Close to my family, I know what I will get there but even with the hassle I would have support for my little one. Moving closer to him means I am still reasonably close to friends - I have a couple friends who are half way between the two areas - so I would know someone and hopefully this would stop me from being totally isolated until I could establish myself with new friends, interests etc.

When I move I will find it difficult to take up new interests since I won't have a babysitter for my son and until I can find classes or hobbies for him that would occupy him at the exact same time I will be pretty stuck.

Yes some thoughts on free or cheap counselling would be good. Not saying it will be a life long thing - I am still very sceptical but and this is a big but I will give it a go because frankly at this point it could not hurt!

oh... crossed posts!

I actually go keep a journal or diary. I write in it every day and it is how I feel about things. I find writing therapuetic and always have. When I write about something which upset me I do feel calmer afterwards but I am not sure that it actually does help me to sort through my feels and direct me to a better path etc.

I have had a quick look through my diary for this year so far and it is full of him! Full of how much fun I have had, full of starting to feel for him and how great things were and then this week full of 'stupid stupid girl' comments and 'why did you ever imagine that a bloke like him would fall for a girl like you... can't even keep a loser creep interested and happy so why would someone who could have their pick of girls actually pick you!!'

I have hunted out last years diary and ran through a couple of pages and it was a mixture of being happy on my own, content and then lonely and wondering why I was alone and why my exes weren't. Comments about not wanting them to be miserable and if they can have a good life great but why can't I have a good life too! And then it picks up when I few guys had shown interest and I got to choose whether I thought they were for me or not. I was still happy even though I had turned them down and then once salesman guy came into the picture it was happy then happier!

"I never pushed or asked or mentioned it because I was okay with the way things were. I was okay just plodding on and enjoying each other's company and was content to see what happened. I figured that when it became an issue for me and I actually wanted to have more that I would have 'the conversation' at the appropriate time... "

This is why you are always the woman a man goes out with for a while and then dumps/gets bored with and ends up marrying the next woman.

The kind of patient forbearance you describe, the putting your own preferences nowhere as long as the person you are seeing is happy and willing to keep seeing you, the trepidation of making your own desires known lest you scare someone off is deeply, deeply unattractive.

The saddest thing about this thread is that if you want this man to fall in love with you and realise that you are the one for him you should do exactly the same thing as if you decide just to protect your feelings, i.e. ending this insulting arrangement

Hanging around making it embarrassingly obvious that you are in love with him while gratefully accepting the scraps he is prepared to give you is pretty much 100% guaranteed to make sure he gradually loses all respect and desire for you.

Journals just encourage the deluded in their delusions.

if you are prone to lying to yourself they are potentially damaging

If he has his pick of girls why pick me then... I am not the easiest booty call in the world, jeez we have to plan in advance and he has to hope that he gets sales calls in areas close enough to travel on the day rather than being sent hundreds of miles in the opposite directions... it is always so tentative and really he could call his other girl up and pop round the corner instead! Not that I know where she lives... just saying!

Just asking a hypothetical question... what if I stick to my word and don't contact him and he does contact me and I refuse to do anything other than spend time with him and he still does keep coming back and spending time with me... no sex, no booty call just conversation etc... would that mean anything in a good way?

He does seem to enjoy the domestic stuff. His flat is so clean and tidy, flowers in vases on the table, pictures on the walls and he is spending ages laying new floors, decorating, new plumbing, new kitchen and bathroom etc. While we were in Homebase he was checking out the kitchens and asking about sale items and so on. And when we talked on Friday he spend about 20 minutes telling me how to fix something in my house.

Perhaps if he came dressed up completely head to toe in the obvious 'bastard' outfit then I would not have so much trouble letting go!