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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

381 replies

littlestmummystop · 13/02/2010 15:41

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

OP posts:
SawneyBeane · 13/02/2010 20:39

I agree with dittany on this.
These were not strangers you had picked up, they were men you had started to form a realtionship with.
You have every right to expect that saying no to sex means no to sex.

On a completely trivial point, what kind of man thinks that the correct step after a snog is to get their cock out?
How seductive.

SawneyBeane · 13/02/2010 20:40

That didn't quite come out right, I'm not suggesting that if they were strangers that they should expect sex.

expatinscotland · 13/02/2010 20:45

E'xpat are you saying that if a woman says "Yes you can sleep on my sofa" what she actually means is "Yes I want to service your penis".

And actually she did say "No sex" but the guy promptly ignored her. You do understand that the message "No means no" is directed at men, not women, for this exact scenario? Because the idea that a woman says no but she means yes because she went on a date/let a man in her house/let him use her bathroom is actually a rapist's charter.'

Oh, bollocks, dittany! NOWHERE did I write that or imply that!

It's about a two-way street, a person taking responsibility for her/himself and no being guilted or pressured into a situation in which they are uncomfortable (and looking after themselves so as to best avoid becoming incapacitated).

I was raped by my best friend's brother's roommate when I was 18. I'd gotten royally rat arsed and gotten into a bed with him and started fooling around with him.

Did I deserve to be raped?

NO.

But at the same time that was the last time I ever failed to look after myself as well as I could.

I never ever again let myself be embarrassed or guilted into jack shit.

mathanxiety · 13/02/2010 20:47

No, she didn't say contradictory things (clumsy expression of mine) -- two contradictory messages were heard. Unfortunately, 'No sex' and 'OK come back to use the loo/ call a taxi' cancel each other out in the minds of these cavemen.

They were not the least bit 'confused', just a pair of chancers, who didn't ever learn that the word 'No' means the same when a woman says it as when a man does. Everything they did was deliberate. They assumed that women know that 'I need to go to the loo/ call a taxi in your place' means 'I want to have sex'. Men like this are predisposed to think all women are gasping for sex with them, and anything the women say is just some sort of code, and anything they say is the same. It's all a big ego-boosting game -- one of them even got angry that the OP wasn't playing along....

Every woman should assume a man will take NO as Maybe or Yes until she knows him much better than three or four dates would allow. Every woman should have the mindset that it's up to the man to prove what sort of person he really is, and that he respects her. The way to do this is not by believing some hard luck story and letting them go to her place after a date. A grown man is well able to look after himself and improvise when he has a problem. Most have mates and phones after all.

This is not the same as saying anything that happened was the OP's fault, or that she would have been to blame if she had been raped. Everything the two men did was entirely their responsibility. But if 'mixed messages' is the classic line trotted out by defence lawyers in rape cases, and if there's a pathetically small conviction rate in rape cases, don't give out mixed messages. Women can't win for losing, even if it is 2010.

If my ex was on a jury where a woman was raped in her own flat by a man she had seen a few times on a date, he would vote to acquit . Men lie this is not news. Rapists get acquitted this is not the stuff of headlines either. A 'No means No' campaign is necessary even in 2010 because obviously this is not what a lot of men believe.

expatinscotland · 13/02/2010 20:55

I never even bothered to report my rape.

I knew how it would go.

This OP keeps posting as if she's some completely hapless, clueless 13-year-old with all these 'something else accidentally popped out' 'all of the sudden his knob appeared' and falling for/feeling guilty for the chap missing the train or whatever.

Part of the problem is women who don't take back and/or hang onto their power and give off the air of a victim. Chancers and rapists can smell that a mile away.

I did that, because I got too drunk.

Again, it doesn't excuse rape, but it keeps a woman safer if she drops the 'it just popped out' crap.

dittany · 13/02/2010 21:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AnyFucker · 13/02/2010 21:46

ok ditt, sorry wasn't presuming anything

brahms, if you want to thrash something out, I am available and have a couple of experiences of my own that might give you some perspective, or at least allow you to get summat off your chest...feel free, but no pressure

picmaestress · 13/02/2010 21:50

OP, I think you've been really unlucky, but I also hope you will think again when someone asks to 'sleep on your sofa'.

If someone asked me that, I would be really, really wary. I certainly wouldn't be snogging them on the sofa, no way. In fact, there'd be a locked door between us, and I don't even have any of the scary stories that some of the ladies on here do.
You need to take better care of yourself. I recently dated a guy who lived out of town, and I asked clear questions even before the date about where he was planning on staying ie not at mine. He had no problem at all about it, it was all perfectly clear and fine, because he's a nice and normal man.

You've had really bad luck, they both sound like horrible men. Please do not risk it a third time. Most men are lovely, but some really aren't. ('please please touch it'? EUGH!)

BrahmsThirdRacket · 13/02/2010 22:02

AF I don't have CAT but thanks for asking.

AnyFucker · 13/02/2010 22:07

no worries, brahms

dignified · 13/02/2010 22:50

I dont know what to make of this thread, its a bit upsetting really. My experience has been such that i am now VERY wary of any man who is pushy about getting into my house . Once in , as someone else says, theyre aware theyve pushed a boundary then try to push further , they get too comfortable and there aware there doing so, theyre also aware you feel uncomfortable and bank on women being polite and push it further and further.

I have experienced this in its worst form years ago .

Op hasnt done anything wrong, and no, she shouldnt expect it, nor did she deserve it, these arseholes are potential abusers.

BitOfFun · 13/02/2010 22:58

I see what you mean Dittany- I agree with you.

aurynne · 13/02/2010 23:38

What I believe is the main argument between the two "sides" on this thread (let's call them like this) is the difference between "blame" and "foresight". If I leave my house door unlocked and the house gets broken into, the person responsible will still be the thief, as much as if it had been locked and he had used a glass cutter to get in. But in the first case, I should have been more careful to leave the door locked, because even if everyone "should" be civil and honest and not steal, we know that there is a minority of people who DO steal. Is it our fault? No, but it is indeed in our hands to do something to prevent it. Being someone else's fault or not does not change the feeling of helplessness and anger we feel when our house is broken into.

The same with inviting a guy to sleep on the sofa and kissing him and giving him a cuddle beforehand... is it the OP's fault that he took that as a "go ahead" and flashed his dick out? NO. But it was preventable. It was preventable by NOT inviting him to sleep on the sofa, and probably even more by NOT kissing and cuddling him if no intention of sex was ever in OP's mind.

The idea that some women say "NO" and mean "MAYBE" did not come out of thin air. When I was younger I met many, many girls who would spend the night saying "NO" and would end up in the guys' pants. Not every woman is like this, but there still are enough for men to keep trying. Simply enough, if no woman ever meant "maybe" when she said "no", men would have stopped trying millenia ago and would use different means to get sex.

What should be is not always what is. I assumed every grown-up experienced person knew this.

And the OP is not at fault of having had two assholes in her house showing their dick to her... but she could have avoided it, and definitely should learn from the experiences to ensure a third "situation" never happens.

dittany · 13/02/2010 23:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aurynne · 13/02/2010 23:53

dittany, you are getting more and more obsessed with details on people's answers that are just in your mind. "A person is not the same as a house"... does anybody really need to be told? It was an example.

I can give you another that involves a person: if a woman decides to walk wearing a bikini at 3 am on a dark alley that is known to host drug-addicts, pimps and gang members, and she gets raped, it will still be the rapist's fault. But the woman still could have shown a tad more brains by NOT risking herself. Are you also contending this? Because if you are, then I rest my case and declare you too deluded to be able to follow a simple conversation.

I insist, dittany: what SHOULD be is not always what is.

And yes, no matter how much you dispute it, I did know many girls for which "no" meant "maybe". It shouldn't be, but they existed. Now go on a rage again if you so desire. But your rage won't change anything.

cornsilk · 13/02/2010 23:54

aurynne you are talking bollocks

aurynne · 13/02/2010 23:54

And she STILL invited these men to sleep in her sofa, regardless of their excuses or if they were true or not. As far as the OP described, none of them forced their way into her house.

BrahmsThirdRacket · 13/02/2010 23:56

I agree with aurynne.

And I have to say, that I have previously (when young) said 'No' when I mean maybe, or even 'yes'. Obviously, it is rare for someone to formally ask 'May I have sex with you?' and for you to reply 'Yes you may' or 'No you may not' (not very romantic or sexy unless you are in to that sort of thing). But it's a fairly well-known thing that people/men want what they can't have, and so pushing them away is a means of making them come close to you. Yes, it is game playing, but it works. It is only fairly recently that I have worked out how dodgy it is to behave like that, because of course then when you really mean 'no' they don't believe you.

dignified · 13/02/2010 23:57

When I was younger I met many, many girls who would spend the night saying "NO" and would end up in the guys' pants. Not every woman is like this, but there still are enough for men to keep trying. Simply enough, if no woman ever meant "maybe" when she said "no", men would have stopped trying millenia ago and would use different means to get sex.

So you knew many, many boys who would continually pressure girls into having sex despite the fact that they have said No all night?

aurynne · 13/02/2010 23:59

dignified, yes, I knew (and know) many boys and men who keep trying after being told "no". Are you telling me you don't know any?

And that's not the worst part. The worst part is, some of them would succeed after trying long enough.

dittany · 14/02/2010 00:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aurynne · 14/02/2010 00:03

dittany, I declare you officially deluded and obsessed with words and phrases that never came out of other posters' mouths (or fingers). There is no point in discussing with you, because you are not listening to what other people say. You just repeat your lines like a parrot.

I will though respond to other posters.

duckszebrasgiraffes · 14/02/2010 00:04

Clearly she did know a lot of boys who would keep up the pressure for sex all night. That implies that any woman would do well to assume that just saying No won't guarantee that the presssure for sex will stop. Which makes trusting men with plausible excuses for coming back late at night a bit problematic, even if you are keen to trust them and instinctively want to. Depressing.

dittany · 14/02/2010 00:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dignified · 14/02/2010 00:08

I dont like this.

She did invite them to sleep on her sofa, thats the point. She didnt invite them for sex, a blowjob or anything else. Fact is they are pushy perverts and its not normal behaviour and shouldnt be tolerated nor excused by other women with this idea didnt come out of thin air.

It came from perverts and pushy bastards who feel its their right to have sex despite the fact someone doesnt want to.

Maybe its other womens fault that the pushy bastard id known for years and thought of as a freind felt it was his right to forcefully attack me one night.

Maybe its their fault because some of them might have said no meaning maybe, perhaps he was confused and thought i meant the same so ill blame them.

What bollocks.

Despite that, i do agree about keeping oneself safe, unfortunately, until something like this happens, why would you assume the worst and think every man is a perv