Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

no no, the screaming bit was my own invention...but no is no, irrespective of the volume.

But she said no and then started kissing and cuddling them on the sofa. This is no way an excuse for actual rape, but maybe they thought she changed her mind and was keen for something more.

He probably thought no sex meant a hand job might be an option.

the first guy did get angry when she said no, Brahms. It could easily have turned nasty.

IMO if a guy can assume that gaining entry into a woman's house means she should at least give him a hand job, then he could also be the type who'd get upset at being cheated of his "right". And then the line would be "well, she let him in and then didn't service him. What did she expect? It's 2010 after all."

If I didn't want to have sex with someone I would not say 'yes' to them sleeping on my couch then go back with them and start kissing and cuddling.

He may have though you had gotten in the mood whilst having a snog?

If you genuinly did not want any sexual contact you should have said 'no, you will have to get a taxi' or showed them the couch and said goodnight and gone to bed.

Its difficult because inviting them in for a snog shouldn't automatically leave you open to the fact he could push for more and leave you in a vunerable position, but it does and you unfortunatly have to protect yourself.

Dittany, I don't get you sometimes. You seem to be very aware of how awful some men can be, hence your comment that some men just see women as an obstruction in the way of a vagina (quite true in some cases) but also expecting that us to assume that we should be able to trust all men. My argument is that there are some dodgy people in the world that you can't do anything about, so you should be aware of how your actions can be used against you by them.

There was a drama on Channel 4 I think a few years ago, where a group of office workers went off to a conference. One of the gals fancied a bloke and he fancied her back. She invited him back to her hotel room and they started snogging. When they were on the bed, he said "I always knew I'd get into your pants from the minute I saw you." The girl got understandably insulted and tried to stop the sexual act. She said no very loudly, told him to stop it, even hit him. All of it spurred him on, he thought she was playing hard-to-get.

They then moved on to the court case. The entire jury said "well, she fancied him before, she let him into her room, she even admits kissing him. No rape."

I cried all night after watching that, and judging by this thread, things aren't likely to move on in the next five hundred years.

Brahms, I will be sure to tell my daughter to never ever let a man into her flat/room even if he just wanted a pee/make a phone call/was bleeding, unless she was engaged to him as if he tried it on, it would be her head on the chopping block, not his. She will be the one labelled as a naive fool who walked into the situation, and the wanker will get off scot free.

Sheesh....

OK, LastTrain, look - no one raped anyone here. If someone came on MN and said 'After a date, I was in my flat with a man and we were kissing. Then he got on top of me and I told him no, but he carried on and raped me.' then I am without doubt that everyone would be saying you must go to the police, you mustn't blame yourself, he is scum etc. But that didn't happen. You are building on the scenario actually described in your mind and making it equal with that drama you saw.

So it's only if the man rapes the woman that the "responsibility" falls over on him? Until then it's the woman who bears the responsibility?

FWIW, when dh and I were dating, he used to crash out in my living room, I remember snogging him before going into my bedroom, not once did he construe that as an invitation to sex or a hand job. It was only if I touched his penis that he took it as my assent to any sexual act at all.

I'm leaving this thread...too depressing by far.

No I'm not a bloke!

I'm speaking as someone who was in a very similar (although more serious) situation once, and was later told that it was my own fault, which I believed for a while. I now don't believe it was my fault, but I do think I may have unknowingly further endangered my own safety by not realising that some men will take perfectly innocent (in my eyes) actions as an invitation. With regards to many crimes, especially rape, I have the positions of perpetrator and victim very firmly in my head, but unfortunately not everyone does. You have to look after yourself, because no one else will, and if it all goes wrong a lot of people will think it's your fault anyway - totally agree with your lose-lose comment.

dittany, I would actually like your view of what happened to me. It didn't get as far as rape, but it did make me a lot more wary. It didn't help that my bf of the time thought it was all my fault...

Don't want to hijack the thread though

This is fucking unbelievable, I can't believe so many posters are suggesting the OP is at fault here. Yes she let the guys into her house - which, as has been rightly pointed out, was as a result of them lying to her about their intentions - but it is hardly unreasonable of her to do so since she had dated them a few times. Err that's what happens in relationships isn't it? Yes, they had a bit of a snog - again hardly outrageous in the circumstances. But you are she shouldn't be bothered or surprised that they they go and get their cocks out and beg her to give them a hand job? This makes me feel SICK. Since when does a bit of snog after a few dates (reasonable behaviour) mean it's OK to then get your fucking cock out and try to coerce someone into groping it? Fucking disgusting.

If a woman says no sex, you don't get your cock out. I don't care what the scenario is.

And this is all just a short hop skip and a jump away from making excuses for rape.

'Mixed messages' is the classic line trotted out by date rape defence lawyers. I'm sure I don't need to remind you that most rapists rape women they know, nor of our deplorable conviction rates ...

brahms...ask dittany if you can cat her

I think the point is that a man should listen if a woman says "no sex" and a man shouldn't automatically expect sex if he is invited back or has a kiss, cuddle etc. Nobody is saying that doing these things is an "invitation" to a man, or that a man can't help it or it's just male nature etc, but just that some men, unfortunately, do take it that way and that is a risk that women should be aware of, especially since most men are physically stronger than most women. Of course it's unfair on the decent blokes out there, but any decent bloke will understand anyway if you said "Look, I don't feel comfortable with you sleeping at mine, actually, let me call you a taxi".

TBH I wouldn't invite anyone back to stay over at my house, even to sleep on the sofa, with DCs in the house unless I knew them very well. That is a whole other issue of course, but I find it a good excuse as well!

I'm a bit cofused- are you saying that all men are potential rapists then, Dittany?