Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

kiwi are you being deliberately obtuse.

Of course you can advise your daughters but the bottom line is they might not be able to avoid it.

I was raped and the element of surprise (by the assailant who was a friend of a friend) and the obvious intent was quite shocking to me.

Dont think there is any way I could have prevented it.

but my antennae is always up for similar situations.

"Please ignore her and continue the reasonable discussion that happens when she is not around. Thank you."

are you having a laugh? Have you actually read your own posts on this thread? I think you may be in your own little world.

Dittany you have been bang on with your posts here, despite the attacks. Reading it all through, the opinions some people hold on this subject is utterly depressing. The fact that some seriously still believe "Women say no when they mean yes" myth, it just beggars belief.

dittany, you don't get it

what I did was to stop aurynne making sly digs (although it didn't last very long..., as evidenced today)

would you have preferred it if I had responded to her in kind...and made a personal attack on her ?

sometimes you don't see when someone is on your side, dittany

that is a shame, and really rather adds fuel to the likes of aurynne's fire, but hey-ho

what I am getting from this thread is women arguing amongst themselves, misunderstanding each other's motives, sometimes being rather nasty blah blah blah

doesn't do too much for women, tbh

nuances get lost in a fast moving thread, ditt

and tbh, I was addressing aurynne (not you), in a style she would respond to

and she got it, she responded (for 24 hours, anyway...)

there are a couple of times I have wanted to cat you, ditt, but you seem to back right off when a conversation approaches anything like a "friendly" level, and of course that is your right

but you shouldn't think that people are not backing you up, when they are, just because it is not done in your characteristically dry and well-referenced stylee

and you are right, this is not the place for this, so I shall shut it now

"Twenty-four per cent of this age group said wearing a short skirt, accepting a drink or having a conversation with the rapist made victims partly responsible"

Dear god..

Dittany, you are the queen of bizarre arguments. Your world has all women living under siege. We're sentenced to misery. Good luck to you with that.

X posts dittany

as you were

dittany, you have proved now the kind of person you are... when you don't like an opinion, you report it.

I still keep my same opinions about you, and about this subject. Reporting me to Mn is not going to change anything, and I'll be back to reply to you whenever I feel like to.

You are the one responsible for women being deluded about real life.

And no matter how much you deny it, many woman HAVE stopped rape by being extra careful. Thousands of them. Women are not useless defenseless creatures, we can take precautions to make sure rapists don't find us to be helpless victims. And do you know something? These precautions work!

I dunno, Aurynne. Here are some of the potential rape situations I've been in. One advantage of my upbringing is that I'm very good at dealing with male aggression. I am certain that some other (more normal) women would have been - and felt - more violated than I.

1] Stranger popped out of the bushes as I was walking home around 10pm, aged 16. My friend in the same road was viciously raped around the same time, also by a stranger.
2] Gang of lads at rural bus stop, aged 17.
3] Date rape (succeeded: it was my first time.)
4] Friend of a friend, had blagged a key from my friend.
5] Flatmate's friend, was staying over.
6] Neighbour who often popped in for a cuppa. Pinned me against the wall; totally unexpected.
7] Co-worker. Drunk.
8] Stranger on the way home at night. Had knife.
9] Black cab driver!!
10]A serial rapist, who was caught last year. Sheer luck that I saw him first. Was a pillar of local community.

That's not counting a couple of terrifying childhood experiences, numerous other dates, minicab drivers, workplace farragos and marital rape. To imagine you can 'protect' yourself is misguided - though understandable.

Attitudes similar to yours, unfortunately, lead women to feel that they are somehow 'wrong', weak and/or stupid when they are assaulted. Only crimes against women are seen as the victim's fault. This, plainly, makes victims feel worse than they do already - and makes it harder to get a conviction.

Of course, not "all men are rapists". The crime isn't about sex or even lust. It's a hate crime - the motive is power. Men who like women do not wish to hurt them.
You might like to read Abi Grant's "Words Can Describe", a writer's inspiring account of what happened after she fought off a rapist.

Please think.

Attitudes similar to yours, unfortunately, lead women to feel that they are somehow 'wrong', weak and/or stupid when they are assaulted"

So true - it also creates a dichotomy between "types" of rape, with some being noted as more deserving and predictable than others.

Grace that made me so sad to read your post, but I'm glad you wrote it as you've said what I've been trying to say far more eloquently than I ever could.

Aurynne, Dittany doesn't report posts just because the opinion differs from hers, trust me on this, I'd have had a lot of posts deleted!!

I have never noticed Dittany reporting posts before, either. She tends to stand up for herself more than edequately, no need to tell tales (usually)

grace...unfortunately I am sure that a lot of women can relate to your list of examples

personally, I can to some of them

Yes, AF

And yet only a small proportion of men are aggressive to women. It's so frustrating that society chooses to help them out, rather than supporting women! If everybody stopped looking to blame the victims, aggressors wouldn't get away with it so easily ... life would become pleasanter for women and for 'normal' men.

Dittany thank you for your eloquent posts, you have said everything I could want to say, but better. Thank you for your calm and rational posts, even in the face of provocation.

In this crappy world it takes all kind of guts to insist on women's humanity. Thank you for doing so on this thread.

The myth that men who 'date rape' are not malicious is the worst one out there. They are both violent and cunning, and imo the most dangerous of all. They plan their rapes in the knowledge that their crimes will be hard to prove, whereas the guy with the knife at the bus stop is being stupid as well as vicious.

In the paper I linked to above, most of the men in the study (a group of 120) had committed more than one rape. Those who were date rapists chose this kind of attack because they knew they were more likely to get away with it.