Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

I wouldn't get depressed by thinking that protecting ourselves against rape equates to saying all men are potential rapists... technically it is true, but it is also true then, that by making sure our house is locked or that we keep our bag always zipped, we are treating everybody else as a potential mugger/thief. It's much more accurate to say that we know that only a minority of men are potential (or consumed) rapists, but we don't know who they are - wouldn't it be easier if they came with a fluorescent sign on their foreheads? -, so we have to be always aware.

That said, I think the atmosphere today in this thread is much more reasonable than in previous days. phew!

aurynne, it's 'cos yours truly has turned up

seriously, don't rock it, eh ?

Ok, Ok, I'll behave...

good girl

When I said 'easier to give in' I meant that resisting beyond a certain point could easily result in serious injury. When someone is showing themselves to be behaving completely outside the normal range, it's not a good idea to keep trying to defend yourself because you'll only get (even more) seriously hurt. But a lot of people seem to think that the only thing that distinguishes between a rape and consensual sex is that if there is a rape there will be a lot more physical damage. Ergo it is only 'real' rape if there is lots of bruising, cuts, scratches etc. Which obviously isn't true.

Mine would have been impossible to prove, unless he had done it to loads of other people who had come forward.

Ian Huntley is an exceptional case, I think, although I can see how there might be more serial sex attackers around than we think.

Does anyone know what is the conviction rate for other crimes? I have got a feeling it is less than 50%, which is still a lot more than 6%, but not as high as some people might think.

I don't think framing a statement in terms of "rape being a male problem" is helpful as rape is not a male problem, it affects women and lets be honest, it affects the whole of society - its everyones problem.

I would agree that rape is a problem caused by male behaviour and I'm not sure I know any other rational being who would disagree.

I also think most rational people accept that when a women says no and a man ignores this and continues without consent then it is rape.

I think the issue gets blurred when people are asked to make a judgement as to whether a rape has occurred and the only evidence available is the word of the parties involved.

In these terms you can quite rationally say that this is a female behavioural problem too. Females accuse men of rape unjustly and everyone is aware of this. Not every accusation of rape is as a result of a rape.

I think this is why people are judgemental towards women when they are raped in situations where the women has say for an example been all over the man all night, drank too much, gone back to his flat or hotel room or whatever. I think there is a certain amount of anger that we are being in the position of having to judge these situations as an incorrect judgement has such a terrible affect on the victim or the accused.

As far as a mugging goes - its not normally the word of just the two people involved. Usually, if someone has been mugged they tell the first person they see immediately after the mugging, they tell the police immediately. There is usually evidence of assault. There is a missing item and this is usually linked with the accused in some way. The accused is usually unknown and so a correct identification is usually good evidence.

There are very very few crimes where the only evidence is the word of the parties involved and where you find them you will find exactly the same evidential issues.

Do you think it might be a vicious circle in that rape has a low conviction rate, so the police ignore those sorts of crimes because they will likely to not result in prosecution, and as a result of this the realities of rape (frequency, who does it, what is involved) are not accepted/well known?

that didn't last long did it, aurynne

"Rape is male behaviour. 99% of rapists are male. "

You've confused me Dittany. Didn't you say that the legal definition of rape requires there to be penetration by a penis? If that's right then why isn't it 100% of rapists are male? Who's the 1% of non-male penis owners? Is hermaphrodite rape really that common?

Leaving that aside, and going by your definition, saying that 99%/100% of rapists are male is a tautology. It's like saying "100% of mothers who kill their children are women!!! "

Not necessarily penetration with a penis, though. Objects can be used to penetrate.

I think the way forward is to report 100% of rapes. A militant reporting campaign...

Thank God for Dittany.

Look, you never "owe" somebody sex. Inviting somebody into your house is not inviting them in for sex! That invitation goes "ooh, get indoors now, I want to shag you!" not "If you've missed your train you can sleep on the sofa" ... fgs

The words that come out of your mouth deserve respect. You said them! If somebody chooses to decide you don't know what's coming out of your own mouth, they must have a very peculiar opinion of you - but that's not what they thought, they just hoped the sight of their wonderful penis would make you change your mind

All this "mixed signals" and "non-verbal invitation" bollocks is what makes it easy for rapists to get away with it.

dittany, go back and read the 5 posts starting at 20:49, last night

I think you got the wrong impression, and I hope you now have the right one

bloodyright said: "rape is a problem caused by male behaviour and I'm not sure I know any other rational being who would disagree"

Regrettably, I'm sure you do.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251040/Rape-Its-fault-victims-say-50-women.html
(I only picked the Mail because it came up first!)

What it says:-

The poll of 1,000 adults found that 54 per cent of women believe rape victims should be held accountable for their attack.
Women were more likely than men to blame victims, with those aged between 18 and 24 the most likely to judge.
Twenty-four per cent of this age group said wearing a short skirt, accepting a drink or having a conversation with the rapist made victims partly responsible.

Rational, Grace, rational.

Good point, math

"having a conversation with the rapist"???!!!

I suppose that if you go out wearing a short drink & talk to a man who buys you a drink ... You may as well just walk up to strangers, offering to let them forcibly shove their penis into you while spitting insults at you

'There isn't anything in the end women can do to stop rape unless we're going to separate our lives from men completely. '

What does this mean? If theres nothing we can do to stop rape then theres no point in teaching my daughters to watch out for themselves is there! We have no plans to go and live on a women-only island, so I'll just tell them to go out there and spread their legs for everyone shall i?!

Forgot to mention that 80% of rapists are known to the victim. So you'd better not have conversations with male friends or co-workers, either. Or your local shopkeeper.

"wearing a short drink" lol.
short skirt.

Leaving this alone now