Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

Rape and assault perpetuated by a stranger is, in many ways, easier to avoid that rape and assault within the family/relationship, for the simple reason that a woman raped/assaulted by her partner has the enemy living with her... so much more difficult to take steps to avoid being attacked, not to speak about the emotional relationship she has with him.

ALL rape is not easy to avoid. But there are a number of easy steps that can be taken to lessen the possibility. For example, avoid getting drunk when close friends are not around, or remember to lock your door, or not inviting strangers at home, etc etc etc. Will this stop all kinds of rape? No, but it will stop some. Will the woman be to blame if she gets raped anyway? No, in no circumstances.

Will dittany still call me a rape-helper and then tell me it's me who insults her? Most probably.

No one has said you can ensure it never happens to you - of course you can't. But further down the thread I stated that I believe I could have avoided what happened to me, and I wish someone had told me before to stick up for myself and not be afraid of making a fuss.

Kiwinyc

I understand that if you've been the victim of rape you will want to tell yourself over and over that there wasn't anything you could have done to stop it and that it was entirely the males fault. I guess you probably have to feel that way in order to heal from the trauma of it and so that you don't feel like a victim any more.

What about the young girl plied with alcohol by a fucking nutter (No offence meant to anyone on here!!!!)
After being abducted at knife point and taken to an area she didn't know?

But for those of us lucky enough not to have been through an experience like rape, we like to think that common sense behavior influences outcomes. And I see no reason to stop advising this.

DON'T TALK ABSOLOUTE BOLLOCKS. Common sense has fuck all to do with it. It is down to luck of being in the wrong place at the wrong time ffs.

Kaloki just summed it up perfectly.

precuations should be taken - but thats not crime specific.

brilliant post

There is a very flawed attitude being pushed here that protecting yourself, staying in control and trying to being street aware and not to be afraid being blunt or of making a fuss if they felt the situation warranted it - is pointless - and that BAD things will happen regardless. If I agreed with this and told my children that personal responsibility like this is pointless, its only ever other people that are bad - I would be a deeply shit mother to my daughters.

Based on these attitudes, I would be raising clueless victims with no personal responsibility for themselves or self control whatsoever. After all they don't need it - because people 'shouldn't' behave the way they do. But i don't think the world is as full of random crazed nutters as you think. I think there are more people who behave badly if given an opportunity to do so and/or think they won't get caught.

I guess the entire theory of 'crime prevention' is a complete farce as well.

I would be raising clueless victims with no personal responsibility for themselves or self control whatsoever

IS that what a rape victim or any victim of crime is then???

No one is saying you shouldn't be aware kiwinyc, what we are saying is that the onus shouldn't be placed so much on the victim.

Have you seen this? Sexual Assault Prevention Tips That Really Work

Think 7 is my favourite:
"USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM! If you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public."

If someone is determined to rape or hurt people in any way, they will probably find a way, and it is NOT the fault of the victim that they were the one in the wrong place at the wrong time. You wouldn't say to someone run over by a drunk driver "why were you out so late? what were you wearing?", because they're obviously a victim of someone else's crime. Same with rape.

The sad thing about this "debate" is the forced polarisation of views. Anyone who doesn't share your view or position is denounced as a victim blamer or rapist excuser.

This lends nothing to any kind of reasoned discussion and it just turns people off.

Women can be proactive in their own safety.

Apart from the prostitute cases, all of the cases I saw involved women who were at least drunk and mostly in a paralytic state. They had little or no control over themselves. There is absolutely no way those rapes would have occurred to those particular women had they been sober. The rapists chose the women because they were drunk and incapable or at the very least the rapists took advantage of the women's incapacitated state.

Acknowledging this does not excuse the rapist.

Simple advice such as - don't get drunk to the point you are unable to take care of yourself and then get separated from your friends without any money for a taxi home. Or - don't get drunk and high and then go back to a guy's flat - on your own - in an area you don't know. If the women had followed this advice they would not have been involved in these rapes.

No amount of advice will prevent rapes taking place. You could be very safe and aware and still become a victim of rape but your chances of becoming a victim are significantly improved by taking simple measures to improve your safety.

If I live in a high crime area and leave my door wide open, my window's wide open and a purse sitting with loads of cash on the window sill in full view with my car parked outfront and my keys sitting at the front door and someone comes into my house and steals all of my money and my car - I am a victim of burglary. I am the victim. I can't be held responsible for the actions of that thief. I didn't invite them in. I didn't ask for it. But my insurance wouldn't pay out.

No what you're saying is that there's nothing you can do because the world is full of random evil nutters who are going to get you no matter what and theres nothing you can do about it.

So lets all rollover and submit, right?

Ah yes, that's what I wrote. Funny though, I appear to have done it using totally different words with totally different meanings, clever of me huh?

'Just as a matter of interest, how do the people here who think rape is avoidable order their lives in order to make sure that rape doesn't happen to them?'

That is an interesting question. I think every woman, to some extent, orders her life with crime prevention in mind. For instance, there is not one night that I don't check that my doors are locked. I keep my handbag closed when I am out and count my change before I leave the check-out. I am aware of people encroaching on my personal space on trains and in crowded places. I lock my car when it's parked in a car park, but not in the garage at night because if someone wanted something out of it they would do more damage breaking a window than the value of anything they could steal from it. I'm pretty sure they couldn't steal the car itself from the garage. I have a car alarm anyway. I walk quickly through dark areas. I never wear high heels. I am very aware of who is standing nearby when I'm at an ATM. I am wary of panhandlers and people who come knocking at the door. I don't allow strangers into my house. I have told a workman who was doing some renovation in my attic to stop work and not come back when he started creeping me out. I keep batteries in my smoke detectors and my carbon monoxide alarm is working and positioned in an appropriate place.

My children have what I consider to be an age-appropriate curfew and I grill them on their evening plans with friends before they leave the house. We all have phones and keep in touch. They have all, DDs and DS included, been told they are to leave a party if certain circumstances arise, and there will be no recriminations whatever from me for being there in the first place. We have discussed how they should exit the party house and where to wait for me.

These precautions are not crime-specific. They are things that are part instinct and part deliberate measures. I don't know if any of this will prevent rape or grand theft auto or mugging. I think there's a law of averages sort of reasoning going on in my mind.

On the subject of dv that someone mentioned, and how it is sometimes perceived -- yes, the question of provocation comes up. There's a great book by Lundy Bancroft that examines the mindset of perpetrators of violence within relationships. (Hint: it's got nothing to do with provocation)

This is an interesting paper on repeat rapists.

Should add, in the context of the OP, I take the message from this that women should be aware that there are predators in our midst and should not trust anyone, really.

dittany, sadly I think you have arrived at the answer in your last post

women cannot win

much will have to change, and I don't know where that impetus for change will come from

it is all very depressing

"I read a post about this somewhere else which gave a possibility as to why the focus always remains on women - it's because the response to rape at a social and legal level is so pitiful that it falls back to women ourselves to do something about it, basically because we're left with no other option. Because we know nothing is going to be done about rapists, the only thing we can do in the end is change ourselves."

That's how I feel about it. Even without a misogynistic culture around it, it would be very difficult to prove a lot of rapes - it's the nature of the crime. The exact same act can be both legal and illegal. 99% of the time women do want to have sex with the man they're with, so for the small minority that don't it is very difficult to prove, unless there was extreme violence - and who wants to risk that? Easier to give in.

I don't understand your point, Brahams about 'easier to give in...'

But disagree with you that it's the same act can be legal and illegal. Think what you mean is the act of consent is the only factor that distinguishes rape and sex. But it isn't. It is a huge difference between consensual sex and rape, emotionally and physically.

The law copes quite adequately with lots of other situations where there are only 2 people in same room.

Yes, I do think we should. (How could that be a trick question?) I don't for the life of me see how this equates to blaming the victims. It makes no sense to warn children about all the other dangers that there are in the world and be silent about rape. And we do freely warn children about dangers. The fact is that women are more likely than men to be raped. I think a parent who doesn't warn a daughter about the potential specific, gender-related danger she may face, is sending out a lamb to the slaughter.

The response to rape at all levels where women should expect support is indeed pitiful. The response to all issues that have ever affected women more than men has been pitiful from the dawn of time. It has always been up to women to fight tooth and nail for our rights. The same goes if we want to effect change the response to rape. It is vital to persist in reporting rape, even in the face of hostility, indifference or scorn from the authorities and from society in general. We shouldn't have to fight so hard for basic justice, but sadly, history shows that this is absolutely necessary.

I believe the focus of the justice system has historically been on the victim's actions because men themselves are very reluctant to believe they are capable of raping, that somewhere deep inside them there is this capacity to grievously wound a female or some other physically weaker person. They are reluctant to break ranks and address something they find extremely distasteful about themselves or their fellow men. Rape of women and of children, both boys and girls, are not that different when it comes down to the physical act. But they have traditionally been differentiated, and it has therefore been easier for a man to get away with raping another adult by focusing on the woman's behaviour, attire, etc. You can't defend a rape accusation against a child by saying she flirted or danced or whatever. Until men are willing to take a stand against all rape, women face an uphill battle.

I really don't think that at such a basic level, anyone is saying we mustn't educate our daughters about the risks that are out there