Is it out of order for man to try it on with you when....

[littlestmummystop]

you've explicitly asked him not to.

This has happened to me twice now. I've been on several dates with a guy, he asks or hints to come back to my place saying: 'I'll sleep on the sofa'

When I have let him back I make it clear 'No Sex' but after a kiss and cuddle all of a sudden his exposed knob appears.... and he asks: 'Please please touch it...'

This has happened to my twice now, two different men.

Both times I have refused and gone to bed thinking they've spoilt it. I like to get to know someone really well before I sleep with them and know we're in a relationship etc. I don't want quick hand jobs on my sofa and make that clear before they come back. So why do they do it?

Isn't it disrespectful to still try it on when you've been asked not to?

'So interesting how women perceive men not as rational human beings but sex beasts who will attack if they are given half the chance.'

I just don't see that on this thread. What has been said is that women shouldn't believe the same ridiculous story twice and then wonder why the same potentially dangerous event happened twice.

And this is not rape apologism. Nobody here thinks rape is fine and ok and women deserve it in certain circumstances. How offensive.

When I finally got together with my H, which was quite romantic as we had strongly fancied each other for a long time, he came round to mine for a drink the evening before he was moving away. I must add that this was after 2 years of having a few brief conversations in passing with him over the 2 years as he lived nearby.

So, he came round for a drink - and just a drink in my opinion - but I now remember he started to turn it into something fully sexual. At this point, even though I fancied him and had done for a long time, it did not feel right for me as I have never been into one-night stands etc. So - I stopped him and said, even though it made me feel embarrassed! that 'I was not into casual sex'. He respected this and stopped looking a bit stunned.

It just has made me think about lack of respect for me (even then) - even though he did stop immediately I said about not being into casual sex, that he would try and chance it and give it a go trying to do that with me on my first invitation. (Maybe I am reading too much into it as I have posted on other threads re abuse etc.).

Okay, so unwanted penis guy emails me to arrange another date.

Of course I most definitely declined.

I was very tempted to spell out the exact reasons why I was put off him, if only to save his future dates the awkwardness of seeing him pull an unwanted cock from his pants.

Is it worth it?

I think your biggest mistake was in going out with somebody called 'Unwanted Penis' Guy. The clue was in the nickname.

is it worth it ?

perhaps, perhaps not

I think I would have been tempted upon declining another date, to give the real reason why along the lines of you thought he was disrespectful to act the way he did

who cares really, though, if this man has a dickhead mindset anyway, he will just write you off a frigid cow (you are not, btw)

but if it was just a stupid mistake on his part, perhaps he will learn a lesson

there is nothing to say you can't teach an old dog new tricks

Not worth it. Don't do it. He clearly has no clue that his behaviour might have been off-putting to a woman. So he writes you off -- you don't want to be thought well of by someone like this.

I'm sure he knows very well he behaved like an idiot. Something makes him think he still has a chance with you though.

'So interesting how women perceive men not as rational human beings but sex beasts who will attack if they are given half the chance.'

The advice for a woman to use common sense and anticipate a situation is not because I'm making assumptions about any male potential to rape.

I'm saying to reinforce what you've decided you want (or don't want) you have to be blunt. And you have to be assertive about communicating your message clearly and leave no room for ambiguity, confusion or wavering.

Dittany

You are very juvenile -suggesting I am part of the problem especially in respect of work I have been involved in is just disgusting, but not especially surprising given the very low level of your discussion in general.

I am no rape apologist or victim blamer, BUT I am absolutely a realist.

To be absolutely clear - as far as I am concerned, no matter what a woman has done or hasn't done does not allow, permit or excuse a man who rapes her.

In my view, men have no excuses in respect of rape.

I could jump up and down all day and shout about how unfair it all is or I can look at the facts of the matter the actuality and reality and see how I can educate the women I know and love in order that they might best protect themselves.

In reality - date rape is a very difficult crime to prove quite simply due to the basic element of proof.

This becomes even more difficult if the women has been drunk.

I cannot see how the legal system can offer protection to both the victim and the accused if the case is settled on the basis of the word of the victim.

Sadly, women do accuse men of rape when no rape has occurred. This is a fact.

I have also seen cases where the women reports rape and then on further investigation it turns out that she only "thinks" she has been raped, she cannot be certain as she was so drunk she can't really remember. Would you like your son to go to court as an accused rapist on the basis of this accusation?

But, anyway, as other posters have pointed out - this thread was in no way a thread about rape - its about a couple of eejits who misread situations and over stepped the mark.

Dittany, someone else has described you as obtuse and i certainly can't disagree.

Risk does not only come in the form of rape, although its seems to be the only thing to you. You can just as easily be pick-pocketed or mugged or trip over and sprain your ankle. This is life in general.

To avoid being pickpocketed I make sure all the zips on my bag are done up and I wear it over my shoulder.

To avoid being mugged I avoid empty dark alleyways or streets I don't know late at night and avoid walking alone in general.

To avoid tripping and ankle sprains I wear sensible footwear.

The line you seem to be pushing is that its ok for woman to absolve themselves of all responsibility for sensible behaviour and not to anticipate any situation where they could be putting themselves at risk and hand that reponsibility over to others - who should be able to control themselves and not take advantage of the vulnerability on displayed.

Yeah, i agree they should, but we all know realistically, they they might not and that it would be bad judgement to test that theory.

We tell children not to get into cars with strangers who pull up at the curb, but we don't blame them if they do and they are raped, and the same goes for a woman who finds herself in a situation where she encounters a man whose intention is to take that which is not specifically offered. Warning that rape is a possibility is not judging.

There are men who deliberately plan their moves with rape in mind. Most rapists are serial offenders. Date rapists calculate that this crime will not be reported and a trial will probably not result in a conviction. They are going around with both eyes open and brain fully engaged. Women need to be aware of that.

Behaviour and luck do have some connection though. E.g. if you live in a dodgy area where there are high crime rates, you are more likely to be unlucky re your car getting nicked/damaged. That's why insurance premiums differ so radically according to area. It's still not your fault if your car gets nicked, it's the fault of the person who nicked it. (disclaimer: am not comparing my body to a car - although if it was it would probably be a J reg Ford Fiesta).

They do deliberately plan, Dittany. Rape is hardly ever a crime of opportunity, even when done by a stranger. And it makes sense to be aware or to suspect that a man who has invited himself into your home for a might be planning something. There is no harm in being suspicious of 'men who need help' -- it's the same kind of situation I have warned my DCs about where an adult asks for their help finding a lost puppy or some lost money or whatever. Do men ever ask for help when they really should? Do they ever willingly get out and ask for directions even if they're dead lost and they know it? Why would one ask for help calling a taxi or need help finding somewhere to pee?

dittany, you are not only obtuse, but if any woman followed your advice, you'd have a sudden increase in rape/muggings/violence of about 50%. You live in a world of fantasy, a very dangerous fantasy.

Crying "it's his fault!" is very true, but won't help a woman who has been raped. Teaching her techniques to avoid being raped is much more useful for her.

You are just deluded if you really think rape happens 100% by chance. Deluded, or just lying to keep proving your nonexistent argument, which is even worse. You should be ashamed of yourself. You don't care the least for women victims of rape. You just want to end this discussion on top, no matter what.

Tiggy D re the name of the man - made me choke on my wine...
OP, I completely sympathise with you and and am amazed at the overthinking that has gone on this thread with the endless discussio of rape, that was not part of your OP.
I agree it is out of order to whip out his dick when you are just having a gentle kiss and cuddle, and oviously counter-productive too, he may have got further/luckier by being gentle.
However, you can see how this happens (I am NOT condoning 'RAPE' btw, just observing men's thought processes rather than women's. Men have to chance their luck all the time in every activity or they get side-lined by other men who do. So they live ever in hope of getting further, not by force but by woemn changing their minds or being woo'd. And they will have seen porn movies when a dick is brandished and the busty nurse is overcome wih desire for it
Most sexual activity does not happen after earnest discussion to produce a framework agreement but evolves during the act - doesn't it? I am sincerely hoping that tonight there may be some action in our house, but have no idea how it will go, quick satisfaction - him getting the treatment, me getting the treatment, interrupted act by chat and laughs, both too tired, on or both indivdual - ahem - action. it ill just happen.
so those men probably thought they could woo her, and the gettin in the house is the next step, and teh kiss and cuddle the next step, they had very poor judgement about the next step...
So fo teh mean time, I would avoid having men on the sofa for teh night (very unhygeinic for people to slepp on sofas, everyone sweats buckets in the night, not good for the sofa becasue they will see it as teh next step towards their goal, not necessarily in an evil way, but just a logical progression, and she might change her mind.
OP - no blame attaches to you, just concern for your safety if you encounter someone nastier who hides it even better.

Many DO stop them dittany, by protecting themselves, and making the rapist look for another victim. The woman is as blameless as it was before, but also happier, as she hasn't been raped. I for one would be delighted if all the potential rapists in the world had to go home and masturbate until their members fell off, as victims had become too difficult to bother with. Wouldn't you?

Now you start changing the argument from rape (which was not in the OP's post) to sexual abuse within the family (which is still further away from this thread's theme)... what's next, dittany? What other argument will you utterly distort just to try to justify your inability to admit you're way out of line here?

Why is rape by partners/husbands sexual abuse within the family rather than rape?

Doesn't make sense. Just because it's in a relationship doesn't make it 'sexual abuse' rather than rape.

No, I just try to bring the subject to what it was at the beginning: the risks of allowing men you know only of some dates in your house "to sleep on the sofa". Family rape (or sexual abuse, or whatever you want to call it) is not by far related to it. Just related to your obsessive attempt to be right. My knowledge about rape has nothing to do about it either, neither you have any information about me or my personal life, or my experiences about anything.

Your own ignorance surpasses this subject by far. And your will to help anyone is null.

Shall we nail a myth. There is no such thing as 'family rape' and am really appalled that despite this being pointed out, that the same phrases are being used. Rape is rape. If a family member commits rapes, it is not 'sexual abuse.' It is rape.