How to make DH accept his words are hurting me

[ringingthechanges]

without him chucking them back in my face and saying I am the problem and I'm nuts?

I honestly don't know RTC

I know very little about Asperger's, I just hear it mentioned quite a bit these days

I usually put it down to one of these "new-fangled" things that have appeared in the last few years but I would get shot on MN for saying that !! Oops, I just did No offence anyone reading !!

Mind you, I didn't "believe" in pregnancy sickness until it nearly poleaxed me

There is a thread on coping with an Aspergers DH somewhere, have you seen it ?

Perhaps you could post some qustions there or on another related board ?

Have you actually asked him straight, calmly and collectedly (?is that a word?): "do you want us to stay married?" "Would you like to improve things?" "How?" "What would you like to change about our relationship?"

Hello!

Ringing, have been thinking about your situation this afternoon (prob because this is v similar to my parents its struck a nerve w me), and am also agreeing w Whenwill. Have another 2 pence' worth:

• agree w Scary that your husband doesn't sound emotionally intelligent or even emotionally functioning!

• you can't make your DH understand or listen to you, but w 1) counselling of your own to understand why you need his approval; and 2) some work/study of your own, you may not care/need him to as much. Re 2nd point, I think would also increase his respect for you.

• writing a letter sounds v good, as that way you can ensure you put across the message you want to, without extra emotion (esp as it sounds like he doesn't really understand how to respond to that). Its not a cold or harsh way to communicate, but it does allow you to put across a considered message. I would also ask that he doesn't respond for X period of time. You deserve a considered response.

• if you do have a conversation instead of writing a letter, I would also ask that he doesn't respond for X period of time. These are serious issues, you don't want an automatic or flippant response.

• do not beat yourself up about this. Calling yourself weak etc doesn't help you, it makes you feel worse. Just make sure you act to change your course.

Congratulations for being so brave, BTW. This is bloody difficult and scary stuff.

FWIW my mother never resolved the issues w my dad. They are divorced and he still treats her like crap and she still lets him. My heart breaks that she thinks so little of herself. But I also despair at the appalling role model she has been. There are other reasons for this beyond her relationship w dad, but wanted to let you know how your DD may see things in years to come. I do not mean to be hurtful, but you still have time.

Yes hanaflower, I think thats it really, he has emotionally shut down since the lack of sex, it means he is less likely to be hurt, feel neglected etc. If your DH is like this hanaflower, how do you manage if you dont mind my asking?

Clam - yes I have asked him several times, he responds with things like 'I'm here aren't I' not very encouraging is it. He does appear very self sufficient and continues to plod along so long as I do not say anything which could be construed as nagging or such like.

Bunnymother, I hear you loud and clear, especially how you 'feel' for your mother, I do need to sort this out and stop waiting around.

RTC, exactly what motivation does your H have to tell you the truth about any possible affair? Why would he answer yes, unless he was willing to accept the consequences? He is not ready to accept any emotional or financial consequences for his treatment of you, so he slams the door on discussion of your relationship, accuses you of personality defects, calls you names, and gives non-responsive or flippant answers like the one he gave to the open marriage suggestion. His words as you recall them, rtc, have an air of contempt to them.

I don't think he is emotionally aloof or incapable of engaging on an emotional level. I think he is being deliberately cruel because he has no regard or respect for rtc, and no reason to change. She keeps a comfortable house and cooks dinner for his friends, raises the children, and looks the part of fond wife, while he gets to appear as the successful business and family man, (meanwhile getting his needs met by someone else on the side.)

As for the nice things he does, these are all things he chooses to do, on his own terms. They are not the result of the two of you deciding together how money will be spent and what your material priorities are. They do not indicate health in the relationship -- in fact, they are indications that he sees the money he makes as his to spend as he wishes and not as you would like. Every nice thing he does with the money, just like every expensive car, etc., he buys, is a slap in the face for you, trying to put together a dinner party without enough wine glasses, for instance. Details like this are important because the friends will assume rtc (a) is such a clumsy housekeeper that she breaks a lot of glasses and (b) isn't organised enough to get out and replace them before the dinner guests arrive.

RTC, I think the only thing someone like this will really understand is meeting force with force, in the form of a solicitor's letter and divorce proceedings. He has absolutely no motivation to change otherwise.

I once wrote a letter to my ex, telling him how I felt about our marriage, begging him to think about our relationship and inviting him to join me in working together on improving it, and he never let me forget it. If I close my eyes I can still see his sneering face mocking me as he waved it around, and I can still hear him referring to it contemptuously as "that letter of yours". Some men know very well they are hurting their wives. The problem is they don't care.

Divorce - You onlyhave one life and how can you be happy this way?
If you love this man and want to stay then you need a job, preferably a paid job. At the very least voluntary work or study, but if you are having money issues you really need to earn your own. No qualifications is no excuse not to work and could a childminder do the school run for you?

RTC. I will be at work today, so won't be posting.

Maths - whilst I agree with what you say about the contempt shown, the probability of affairs and also the logical next step i.e. forcing a showdown, I think there's also a bit of "gap filling" (and perhaps we're all doing that to some extent).

OP hasn't said that the nice things DH does for the family are only on his terms, there is no evidence that the dinner party was for HIS friends (OP just described them as "company") and it's not as if Ringing was completely banned from buying wine glasses. If providing glasses for friends had ever been more important to Ringing than having the "right" type of "white wine" glasses, she would have bought some from her allowance. Can you imagine having friends round for dinner and deciding that, since you couldn't afford to buy expensive cutlery or glassware, they would have to do without?

I do understand about social standing etc. and maybe it's because I left that whole "dinner party to impress" world a long time ago, but as I've got older, it's much more important to me that friends are comfortable and happy in our home.

It would be tempting to think of this man as an emotional desert, who only gets his kicks from his business and controlling Ringing, but other parts of his personality do not seem to fit with that assessment. To have wanted to leave 4 years ago suggests that this man once did feel emotions very strongly. He appears to adore his children, especially his son.

One of the things I dislike about the views expressed on Mumsnet sometimes is that men don't have the same emotional nourishment and love needs as women - and that men view their marriages as a means of controlling women and getting "service" from them. This reduces men to unthinking, feeling creatures and is not my experience at all.

I agree that your H has every reason to deny affairs RTC - and lack of time and accessibility are no bars to affairs unfortunately.

If you really don't think the good counsellor route, the letter or another conversation are going to work, perhaps shock tactics are what's needed - but given that you've said he'd cut his own nose off to spite his face, if you go down that road, be prepared for the consequences. It does seem as though he doesn't really take your threats seriously (i.e. open marriage).

Only you know what your tipping point will be, but I ask you again, can you stay with someone who appears not to love you?

Also, what do people in RL say - your families and real friends? What's their view of the two of you and how you interact?

Theres only a couple of people in RL who I have discussed this with, one of them thinks he is just selfish and the other can see the same as I do. None of this is about social standing and having the 'right' things BTW. The wine glasses and cutlery only came into the conversation because it was when he bought the cutlery he started being patronising and name calling again. I have been married 20+ years and had free gift cutlery from a mail order catolgue for years. We have never bought a set of wine glasses. I have picked up cheap ones along the way, very plain and pub like. Now that we can afford to have so much better then that is what I would like. I do not think I am being unreasonable. We have never bought china. I used his mothers 2nd hand stuff for years and leftovers from a restaurant. A few years ago we bought a few pieces but over time some of them have broken, others I have picked up on the market. To the outside world we have everything, come inside our home is quite bare. This is not the point though, the point is that when I talk about can we buy this or fix that room etc, I get a lot of 'what fors?' He talks to constantly about his work and how much money the company is likely to make etc so its not as though we are struggling. I was happier when we had nothing but we had each other. It sometimes seems that success has gone to his head and he is not interested in much else. Previous family members have blown their cash so I do understand how driven he is but at the expense of his wife? No, I don't get that bit at all. I am going to give it one last shot, be as sweet and as nice and as loving as can be, not mention anything about the house and I will see how things are after xmas. I do appreciate all your comments everyone, it does help me think harder about my situation and I also apologise to all you MNetters who have heard it all before over the last years. I know, its boring, and there are worse things happening in our world but sadly for me, I get to a point where I am unable to cope anymore and I feel my world has tumbled down around me, hence I post, yet again. Sorry.

In my experience (some) men who make a lot of money are doing it to fulfil very deep unmet needs, probably from childhood. In our society, being rich is a way for a man, particularly, to gain power, prestige and CONTROL. When you are rich you can control, to an extent, the people around you. If that person has a personality disorder such as NPD or maybe comes from a dysfunctional family, then the control issues are likely to dominate relationships - with spouse and children.

My father was such a person - he made a lot of money to compensate for deep insecurities. His ego needs were met by being successful in business and by always having mistresses who he would provide quite a lavish lifestyle for.

However, even though he was rich, as children we would go around in hand-me-downs. He always turned the heating down so the house was freezing. And once we got to be teenagers he made us get Saturday jobs and part-time jobs all holiday and refused to support any of us going to university.

Some of this pressure I presume was from a mistress who wanted him completely to herself, but it was also his own Obesssive Compulsive Disorder. Money was his way of controlling and dominating everyone - withholding money was a way of making people dependent and insecure. So selfish, so controlling.

My mother unfortunately found it very difficult to stand up to him even though she was an educated woman. She no doubt had her own issues and insecurities. In the end they stayed married but she just ignored him most of the time and she worked so made her own money. Personally I think she should have left him.... at least for a long time until he grew up (amazingly he has now, almost.....)

This is all to do with power and control and his own needs - it sounds like you have become a pawn in his power game to be manipulated to suit his ego needs. Sorry to sound harsh.

I think if it was me I would be looking very seriously at individual/joint counselling with a view to either serious changes in his behaviour or separation. Your position now is worse in many ways than if you were separated or divorced. If you were divorced you would have to be provided with a reasonable income from him as mother to his dependent children and you would also be free to explore more fulfilling relationships, should you wish.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but what you are saying reminds me of the behaviour of my father while I was growing up - not wanting his children to go to university because it would be a financial burden (and be a threat as he hadn't) yet putting up his mistresses in five star appartments. I am still angry about it...

thankyou lovelife, it seems DH is only more frugal when it comes to my requests. To him, a glass is a glass, a chair is a chair. If you have chairs then you do not need new ones IYSWIM even if the chairs you have are really old and tatty and you can afford to replace them. I think he likes being in control and yes he wealth provides this for him very nicely within the home environment. He is surrounded by yes men all day long.

whenwillifeelnormal, I hope you have a good day at work. I sometimes wish I had a job to go but its not that easy, was never career minded but gosh how I now wish I had been.

rtc, I really feel the decision you appear to have made is the wrong one

it seems you are going to "put-up-and-shut-up", be nice, not annoy him, not rock the boat etc etc until Xmas and see how it goes

oh dear

in other words, you will again suck up all your unhappiness and resentment, he has no incentive to change, don't you see that ?

see you in the New Year

agree about the no incentive Scaryfucker, good point. Its hard to give up, he is a jeckle and hyde and working his socks off. He makes me breakfast every sat and sun and said we can look for new lounge furniture at xmas. To a lot of people he is very kind and giving, to me, he is scared of being hurt and so hurts me instead. Its all so difficult. I am being more assertive, something he has noticed recently, I am not a complete door mat but I also know if there are any changes to be made it will not happen overnight. Dont write me off as a lost cause, today I met two people who had recently lost thier husbands to death, 2! It sort of makes you think, we are not all perfect, he is not and I am certainly not. We actually have so much to lose if I or we give up.

Hello rtc

I remember you from last time.

I have just divorced one of these specimens.

Took me nearly three years, affected my health etc etc

He was vile in the courtroom.

The judge told him he was not a very nice person.

I was awarded more than I ever thought possible.

I and my children lived in poverty while he had whatever he wanted. And he used my earnings from several jobs to supplement his (substantial) family business.

He was punished.

Life is too too short to put up with this.

He will not change...why should he?????

His needs ARE being met.

I would really like to think that there are men around who are not like this, but sadly my experience has been of these men...my own is a narcissist, as is his family.

But whatever label you put on it, he is as he is, and he could change of he wanted to couldn't he? If he was a nice person he would not want to see you unhappy. These kind of people ENJOY seeing your unhappiness.

Leave. And see the shock on his face.

He might even be shocked enough to change. You never know.

Wishing you strength. It can be done!

xxxxxx

Can you find the strength to complete change your tactics. Can you focus purely on how emotionally unhappy he is.

Do not mention buying things etc etc etc at all (I mean for months)

Every time he does something kind or spends time with you or anything in that vane say something like "it was so lovely of you to do x", "I really enjoyed our day doing y together"

Will he go out for dinner with you (you pay if it's an issue) focus on spending time with him and enjoy his company - even if you're not.

In short can you focus on trying to meet his emotional needs for several months and then bring up the need for relationship counselling.

I think the key is to throw everything into finding each other again. It would appear that the time when you had PND did some huge damage to the relationship/his esteem/his ability to let you close that is what you need to focus on.

I can truly understand why you don't want to give up on what was once a a good relationship. However the only person you can change is you, try changing your complete approach to how you deal & act towards him. don't mention anything about the stuff you would like (need) for the house etc because that gives him the excuse to focus on that rather than the real issue which is the emotional connection between the two of you.

Don't apologise for how long this has been going on and how weak you are. You are in an unhappy situation and it is difficult to see the wood for the trees.

If you want some on line support whilst you try and change things I'm here, I'll listen if it helps you commit to changing then that would be something I'm happy to do.

Thank you Cargirl so much. Your post makes complete sense and I am already working on the advice you have just given. He is happy to take me out whenever I ask (he doesn't really instigate it but nevermind), he does oblige me. I do believe he sees that I have neglected him and I agree, to focus on him instead of thinking me, me, me (which incidentally he mentions) could be a big step in the right direction. I would really appreciate your online support Cargirl, its really kind of you as I sometimes don't want to tell my friends in RL as if I go on too often then its not fair on them.

gettingagrip, yes he would be totally shocked if I left but I do sincerely believe he would be really hurt despite his bad behaviour. I hope you are doing ok now and thanks.

I read this book a long time ago and it may really help you

"getting the love you want" by Harville Hendrix isbn 0671715291

I'm sure somewhere it discuss what happens when couples start to date again how for a while everything really improves again and then the old issues resurface & why & what to do. Perhaps it would be worth reading because being prepared to see it through for several months will be hard going if it's just you doing it IYSWIM

He also wrote "keeping the love you find" not read, not sure what it's about but it may be worth reading too?

Chapters are:
The uncounscious marriage

• The mystery of attraction
• childhood wounds
• Your Imago
• romantic love
• the power struggle

The conscious marriage

• becoming conscious
• closing your exits
• creating a zone of saftey
• increase your knowledge of yourself & partner
• defining you curriculum
• containing rage
• portrait of 2 marriages

there are exercises at the back to do as couple, he may not want to do them/or you may never ask him but it helps you see marriage as part of your life choices on a much wider scale.

Thank you cargirl, I will look out for the book on amazon and buy it.

OMG I remember you too in the mansion with nothing inside it! What makes you think this guy will ever change?

Why wouldn't you and the kids be happier on your own, is it really the fear of being alone that keeps you together?

I think it explains a lot at how you are attracted to your opposite sex parent and you continue your childhood battles with them trying to fix that relationship.

So subconsciously you choose someone who is sensitive to any sort of rejection, who will cut of their nose and who has a desperate need to control others and you react to them how you reacted to the parent who was like that with you.

Meanwhile your husband has chosen someone who replicates someone who has some/many of the character traits of their Mum and trys to to fix the relationship with their Mum through the way they treat their wife.

I guess that means you have to change the way you deal with it otherwise nothing gets resolved you both carry on the same "dance" forever.

Cargirl???????? I had a normal happy childhood, not sure what you are saying.

cargirl, with respect, that literature you describe sounds like the biggest pile of claptrap I have ever come across....

My equation is simpler

If a partner shows you no respect, despite years of you trying to make him see that = he doesn't love you enough to think you are worthwhile = leave