FAB & GLAM 10 - Gosh, Do We Really Talk That Much???

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Hi, new thread

Lovely to see all the old posters again. Don't go now you are back.

Annie/UC/MHIS - lovely to see you and thanks MHIS for the FB chat.

Thanks for that, TFM. I've read most of the BPD articles now, very interesting. Some of the behaviours, emotions and background sound very like XH, others not so much. Arrested emotional development, panic about abandonment, inability to empathise with spouse as a separate human being, projection of own insecurities, very much so! Infantilising, oh yes; almost every morning he'd tell me to take care crossing the road and not to pick up any strange parcels on the train or talk to any strange men with beards (!), and once he told me that I needed to wipe my bottom front to back, did I know that? Er thank you, I said, I've been wiping my own for 40-odd years, I think I'm probably doing it right by now. Anyway, whether he is Borderline or not, the boundary reinforcing techniques do work (eventually), so I'll keep doing those.

Weekend sounds fabulous, Tanee.

Cats look at everybody strangely; DP shouldn't take it personally. They were probably thinking nothing of the sort, just plotting world domination.

it was his comment that she (the very needy little girl cat) was prowling round the garden, as if looking for freshly turned earth, that made me laugh.

Hi all. I seem to pop in here every few weeks, leave some questions and a whistle-stop guide on my life, and then disappear! Sorry.

Anyway - Baffy, glad you had the date. Nothing wrong with taking it slowly. If he is nice, he won't mind.

Tanee - So sorry things are still so bad. Alcoholics are so difficult - I learnt a lot over the last two years. It is heartbreaking not to be able to help.

Life: Hmm, had my WW weekend last weekend. Incredibly tiring but so fantastic. All of us are keeping in touch on FB, so that is fab.

Saw 'my' barber for the first time since March 2009 (who's counting? ). He had been in an accident and has only just come back to work. Although both of us talk about our other halves, there is definitely a frisson of something there. Enough to make my day anyway. We talked the whole way through ds' haircut - poor ds couldn't get a word in! Mind you, that is a first!

Hi Givenchy, good to know the barber is still around even if you're both unavailable. It must certainly add a sparkle to ds's haircuts!

Sounds like you're having a good time just now. Now, how about a better time - lunch? Perhaps with HW too? And anyone else?

Things quiet here. DP's being nice, but I feel in the doldrums emotionally, especially as he's made absolutely no effort to reduce the drinking, get a blood test or contact the alcohol team. I wonder if I should suggest the counselling service at our gp's surgery, but am loathe to waste money that I actually don't have, if he won't make an effort. Am trying to do the Alanon stuff, acceptance, detachment etc, but I find him less and less attractive or worth fighting for, as the evening wears on and the drinks go down. I just watch him getting muzzy headed and irritable and wonder where that gorgeous, gentle and kind man has gone? I find myself going off to do things elsewhere most evenings - especially as he's become fascinated by whatever sport is on the telly, and I cannot share the interest. Sometimes feel we're reaching the end of a long, sad road...

We actually had a nice evening on Saturday, listening to his Neil Young albums in the dark, but that was chiefly because I made a conscious decision to join him and be nice, instead of fleeing the loud music, which was my first instinct! (I'm not a huge NY fan, but am learning to like!)

But generally, I am having to slowly face the fact that he'd rather stay within the comfort zone of his depression and addiction, than face the hard work that would bring him back to the wonderful 'us' that we enjoyed so briefly for five happy years.

Hi everyone all well here, all happy, no drama's to report. Lovely new kitchen which is almost finished and a house which I have decorated from top to bottom all by myself! Carpets being fitted next Tuesday! I am exhausted but feeling very very proud!!

Tanee darling, I'm so sorry you are still battling the same problems. But, in reply to your wondering if you should contact the counsellor, NO, you should not be contacting anyone. I'm sorry sweetie but DP has made it perfectly clear he is happy just as he is. To put it very bluntly without wanting to hurt you I'm thinking that you personally have gone as far as you can go with this now. I reckon it's a case of accept it how it is or move on, without him.

Life is short Tanee, you have spent such a lot of yours supporting this man, standing by him, helping him. You have even had to sacrifice your relationship with your DD. Now remind me, exactly what has DP done in return? How has he shown his love and devotion to you?

It is hard to give up and let go Tanee, it really is hard to call it quits and walk away but I tell you what, once you do, once you leave all of his problems behind and start living your life you will wonder why you didn't do it years ago!!

Hear hear TFM.
Tannee it seems like you have been putting in all the effort and he has been coasting along in his own sweet way regardless. Unfortunately you can't make him get help, he knows what he is doing and if he won't (can't?) stop then he has to live with the consequences.
I so understand that feeling that you are drifting away from him. Thats how I have felt for a long time with (D)P.
We've reached the end of the line now but it has been a long time coming. I think you just get to the point where you stop caring, which is sad, but TFM is right, once that decision is made you will feel so much better. We are living completely separately now but still in contact and I'm much happier now.
Hope everyone else is OK and surviving enjoying the summer holidays

Thanks Ginnny & TFM - you are right, and I am exhausted. I'm also getting bored with myself. Last night brought things to a head (again!) when we started watching a DVD, the machine played up - I hadn't used it for ages, got my own upstairs - he just lost it, pulled out the machine and smashed it up! I was horrified, though he found it very cathartic (and it was his player, so that was ok at least). I said I couldn't deal with his anger - that he is SO angry. He said he'd been angry all his life.

Well, it put me right off my dinner. I just sat there quietly, said I'd had enough, I couldn't help him any more, said I felt he didn't want to be with me. He agreed (he always agrees with the negatives, never the positives). He said I should be with my daughter, he couldn't understand why I wasn't (so it's all my fault ). I agreed, said yes, I SHOULD be with her as he obviously didn't want to be with me or do ANYTHING to repair us or heal himself.

Spent a rotten night, hardly slept. This morning he said sorry, (he's always sorry, but not sorry enough to seek help). I said I didn't want to lose the house, that I'd see about raising the finance to pay him off at least in part, so he could go off and do his own thing (he said he'd like to die in Spain). He said he didn't want to put me into debt. So I said fine, just get an agent in and sell the damn place. (Sell my lovely garden, which is looking so lush at the moment). It breaks my heart and I am so ANGRY that he is throwing away our life together, throwing away his chance of getting better and having such a wonderful, supportive partner as me.

But you're right, I've done everything and he's done nowt. He's happy in his comfort zone of misery, depression and alcoholism and I can do no more. We can't go on like this.

Been looking at houses on the net - not a lot that's nice and within budget unless we move quite a way out into a well dodgy area, which would be pointless for DD, far from her friends; a cottage in the next street is the only thing that appealed, costs more than we paid for this house, much smaller, tiny courtyard garden. Can I bear it?

TFM, I would email you, but my laptop is hopeless now. I'm keeping it out of DP's way in case he decides to smash that as well, and as my father paid a lot of money for it, I would NOT be happy. However, I know there's nothing extra that you could add to what we all know - that we can't go on like this. I'd have a good bawl but I'm in the office. They've been very sweet but even they said I really need to call a halt as he's not prepared to get help. I probably will be calling the counsellor, but for myself, not him. I need to find out why I'm so crap at picking men!

Oh Tanee I think TFM is right and I know you know she is right too What is wrong with these men that they won't even try and fight for their women
I wonder if the al-anon meetings have been helping you to see him in a different light (less of a victim perhaps?)hence you feeling increasingly detached from him? This is a good thing - you are protecting yourself and giving him back the responsibility to sort himself out. Either way, you are starting to put yourself first which is good, brilliant in fact
Take some time to think through your living arrangements. For example, could you buy somewhere, rent it out (rent will pay mortgage)and then rent in your chosen area? A lot of companies offer guaranteed rents - such as councils/housing associations.

Oh Tanee, I feel so sad for you. I am also scared for you. I remember the last episode of DP's and it wasn't very pleasant. I think you need to be really strong now Tanee, really focussed and get yourself out of there. His behaviour is not only irrational but it is unpredictable, who knows what he will do in anger the next time. You need to think of your safety as well as your sanity.

As for your garden, I totally understand how you feel but sweetie you will have a lovely garden again. You will be surrounded by flowers and plants one day, flowers and plants that you really can enjoy because you will be free of all of this stress and emotional pain. If you stay with him much longer you will be far too depressed to enjoy your garden, you will get to the stage where it means nothing to you.

Harsh as it is sweetie, his dreams are not the same as yours. He wants totally different things to you, he doesn't want the lovely garden and the happy ever after. He wants to be alone, to wallow in his misery and to eventually die alone. You can't save him, you can't rescue him and not only that you shouldn't try. He is entitled to live his life exactly how he pleases, what he isn't entitled to do is drain you dry while he is doing it and that is what you have to change, that is what you have to put a stop to.

The time has come to stop thinking Tanee, to stop waiting, it's time to act now. It's time to change things, thinking about things won't change anything. And yes, do get counselling for yourself. It would do you good, it will help you to understand why you feel you have to hang on to this man and thins relationship no matter what and despite not getting anything out of it. I know that I was codependent and I do believe that you are too. Counselling will help you with that.

I wish you could email me. I feel I want to be there for you. I was reading our old emails yesterday, the ones we exchanged in the week before I left HWSNBM and when I was about to move into the refuge. You were an amazing support to me Tanee, truly amazing. I am here for you just as you were there for me xx

Ladylush in answer to your question as to why these men won't fight for their women, they don't have to because they think that no matter how badly they treat us we will stay, we will never leave. Because we threaten but yet don't carry out our threats they are seen as empty words and fall on deaf ears. They suffer no consequences as a result of their bad behaviour and, although I hate to say it, we enable them to abuse us by staying and allowing it to continue. The only way to stop the abuse, because Tanee what you are experiencing is abuse, is to leave.

After I left and during one of his pathetic efforts to get me back I asked cats arse face if he thought I would just take his crap forever, if he never thought that he might one day push me too far. His reply was that he thought I loved him too much to leave, that he thought I would just take whatever he threw at me because I loved him. To this day it amazes me that he was so arrogant to believe that no matter how badly he treated me I would continue to love him BUT, I suppose I had given him the impression that I would, after all I had tolerated his vile abuse for 11 years. He thought he had me trained.

Tanee, don't enable this man one minute longer. Take back your life and leave him to live his life just as he pleases, in the misery he yearns for.

TFM & Lush, thank you so much for your support. They've been lovely at work, too, even the office manager whose face I offered to slap before the election ! I'm about to go home now, see what joys await me. It was supposed to be a dish of grilled peppers and potato salad - DP was in a mood for cooking this week. Now I guess he'll be downstairs getting plastered and I'll be upstairs with the cats again.

I might go see my bank manager later this week and find out if there is any way of realising some of the equity in the house to pay him off - like a part buy/part rent scheme or something. We'll see. Or maybe I do need to just buy somewhere totally new, with no associations.

At the moment, I think of the good years we had, and wonder if I imagined it all! I was watching a prog the other night - Twiggy walking around Southwold and talking about her life. She mentioned her second husband, how he was an alcoholic and how she ended it after 10 years. She was asked why she married him and she said, he was dry at the time, dry for 3 years. A different person. That was DP - not that he was dry - far from it - but he seemed happy, and though he drank, he didn't become angry and muzzy headed - he didn't LOOK drunk as he does now. And he wanted to be with me. Not sitting up alone half the night with a bottle for company.

Last night when I told him that relationships change and need working at, he actually told me I was being a romantic. WTF? He seems to think, relationships go bad, shift out, that's his reality.

Anyway, enough of that. Am going home now to my lovely cats.

Lush, I think TFM has something there, about them not fighting for us, because they think we'll always be there (even while they're telling us it's over, as DP is). 'Unconditional Love' -that's what he said he thought he had from me, the first time we had a blow-up. Well, unconditonal love is what I give my child and my cats. An adult man has to earn it. He did, for awhile. Yes, maybe Alanon has had an affect on me, maybe I'm now detaching - with love, still, but I am seeing him for what he is - a sad, very sick man, who will not help himself and cannot, therefore, be helped.

Thanks again girls, it's good to know you're there for me. TFM, if I can, I'll try to email you later - my laptop won't stay on long enough to even get on the net, then it freezes - but I will try.

I don't think we imagine the good years Tanee but I do think we choose to ignore the little things that are going on that aren't so good. We choose to excuse them, we adapt to fit, we accommodate them because we love the men we are with, regardless. Then as time goes on, when the good times are fewer the bad times are highlighted. Plus like you say, we change, we grow, what we tolerated way back when we may not wish to tolerate any more.

Relationships do change with time, as do people. I think we either grow together or we grow apart, even in the relationships without the added problems.

It's difficult for you at the moment because you are so enmeshed in your situation. You need to be able to take a step back, to take a good long break from him to see how damaging and unhealthy this relationship is for you. Also, could we please change that might go and see the bank manager to a will go see the bank manager, and could we strike the "we'll see" out completely please. I'm sorry to be a nag Tanee but it's past the time for mights and maybes now, it's time for action. I was looking back through our old threads recently. You might find the confirmation you need that your situation has not progressed if you were to do the same. Save yourself Tanee. Focus on getting out of there, getting your own little place and creating a little haven where you can be free to enjoy life and don't dread going home for fear of what you may find. Lot's of love xxx

And being with dd Cos I think that is something you will really regret in all this if you stay.........he has already come between you too much. And think of your lovely cats Imagine how happy they will be It is horrible to contemplate leaving.............but you won't always feel this bad. He is a drunk and a depressive. He takes you for granted. He treats your daughter and cats badly. He is not worthy of any relationship right now - least of all one with a lovely lady like you.

Tanee - yes, let's really do lunch. Can we do September though as I have used up all my favours, babysitting-wise, and it would make my life much essier!

Sorry your dp is still letting you down, but I think that TFM is right. My experience with my alcoholic friend taught me a lot. Alcoholics will never take the blame, or change their behaviour. The only thing you can change is how YOU deal with it.

Things here are drifting along. All ok at home, but that is as far as it goes. I am this goddess of a woman () and I might as well be living with my brother! He did try a couple of times, but I think I am now expected to have forgotten all the past hurt and start making moves again. That is NOT going to happen. He needs to fight for me and doesn't seem to see the need.

Anyway, I don't actually WANT to have sex with him any more - there, I have admitted it. I can't stop thinking about the barber.

Givenchy - do you mind me asking how long have you been married?
Now you are slim sexy and more confident he'd better watch out. One day he might wake up and find you've run off into the sunset with the barber. Think of all the free haircuts .

Dior, yes, September sounds good. I quite fancy rambling through the autumn leaves with Liz Hurley! And Liz, you really are wasted living with your 'brother'. Blow him out and look for Hugh the Hairdresser

Thanks again for the nag TFM. Going from 'should' to 'will' mode, though I know exactly what my bank manager will say, once he's looked at my account - 'computer says no'. If worse comes to worst, I can ask my family for help, but I REALLY don't want to go there as they already helped a little with the shortfall for the house and it'll give my mother another excuse to lecture me on my crap choices in life.

Well, scarcely exchanged a word with DP last night. He said he was feeling tired when I got home last night (didn't ask how I felt, I was knackered!) then started watching an old video and of course, drank himself into the usual stupor as he isn't working today. I went upstairs and watched crap tv till I fell asleep during some Ideal World blurb about food processors. I wonder if he'll contact an estate agent today? I'm going to get a valuation myself, to show I mean business & see how much I may have to play with. Something nice might turn up in the area. No, not 'might' - will (glances at TFM for nod of approval).

Some vicar who constantly sends good news to us at work has sent in a DVD called 'The Secret'. I'm going to watch it tonight with a glass of wine and some M&S chicken. It's all about how to be happy - positive thinking - which is something I try very hard to do, though I've lost it a bit this week.

TFM yes, I looked at my old threads a while back and noticed that nothing, but NOTHING had improved - it's only got worse, ie DD leaving (though he IS nicer to the cats!). I do also realise that there were a few pointers to difficulty before we lived together - like the time he was staying with me and he got irritated by noise from my upstairs neighbour and just disappeared without a word, and kept out of my way all day, sleeping in his company van till he got too cold, because he took exception to my tone when I called his mobile to ask where he was and why he hadn't told me he was going out. That was an upsetting incident that should have rung warning bells - but in those days, we would talk through any problems and he'd resolve to communicate better. And he did, for those years. Only, since we moved in together, he doesn't.

Ginny - We have been together 22 years, married for almost 11. It has never been 'right' in many ways, but it is great in others.

Oh, and Tanee - apparently I look like Belinda Carlisle now

Ah Givenchy (or should I say Belinda )- that's a long time. My longest relationship was 8 years and that was hard enough.
Is it ever 'right' in every way though? The more I see of relationships the more I'm beginning to doubt it (or am I just getting old and bitter?)

Liz Hurley or Belinda Carlisle - who cares eh. Both gorgeous women Lucky you Dior I can understand how you might not want sex with your h any more. He's eroded your self-esteem over the years and now that you have the figure and confidence you worked for, maybe it's just too late. More trips to the barber perhaps. Can you take your friends kids as well?

Tanee - how are you today? Is your dd on college hols? I was thinking, if you could afford it, how nice it would be for the two of you (you and dd) to go away somewhere. A city break perhaps? Wish I had the money - I'd gladly send it to you.

TFM - your house sounds lovely Must be great to have got it how you want it. You sound very happy as well

I'm back at work next month. Quite excited about it - weirdly. Will be nice to get a salary again as well

Ginnny - I don't think a perfect relationship exists but we are naturally more matched to some than others. Love gets in the way unfortunately and sometimes makes us work at or simply endure relationships that were clearly never going to work. I think dh and I are well matched but clearly not a perfect relationship, but I wouldn't have bothered working at it if it were just love keeping us together (not after the infidelity).

Oh and we've been married 10 years, a couple 10 years before that!

Tanee I really hope you're ok TFM's advice is great, and Dior's and LL's, I can't really add to that!

TFM I'm glad all is going well

My emotions are still a bit up and down but I'm doing really well and ds's are amazing

Hi Baffy How is ds2 sleeping now? Hopefully the fact you haven't mentioned it is a good sign Sorry to hear about your emotions being up and down - though it's understandable of course. It's not what you had mapped out for yourself Glad you are enjoying your boys though

Is anyone able to do a London meet up during the summer hols?