Emotional Abuse - can we talk abou t it and what it entails?

[Janos]

If we already have a thread on this then I apologise for bringing it all up again. Perhaps someone can let me know and if so I'll let the thread die quietly!

I just thought it would be helpful to talk about it, and what constitutes it so people who are in an emotionally abusive relationship could recognise what is going on as it can be so insidious and nasty, and more difficult to identify.

This is not for one moment to denigrate or draw attention away from physical or sexual abuse btw.

Good morning ladies,

Putdown

All the things you mentioning are traits of PA personality (passive agressive) . Google it

hello everyone - and can I just say thanks to you all fr your input - it is really helpful and cathartic.

Lemagain thanks so much for your detailed and insightful post. I do understand there re both sides to the argument and that is half of my problem - I know I am not always the easiest person to live with. I have horrible insecurities (although outwardly confident) and I know that if I somtimes find it difficult to be empathic and see things from other people's point of view (but he also uses these as cutting insults, which does not help). I can be selfish and self-centred and am generally rubbish at being organised, puntual etc - he is not - he seems like the "better person" because of this.

This puts me on the horns of a dilemma, as [when dh is nasty to me, I don't see the part of it that was my fault - most of our arguments quickly become about who started it or escalated it

("I didn't say anything"
"but your face fell and that only means one thing"
"stop screaming at me"
"I'm not"
"that's the problem, you don't even realise you are" etc)

however I do also think that he can be emotionally abusive. He on the other hand claims that it is me being abusive. For example, in extremis in sheer frustration and distress to try and make him stop when he is arguing me round in circles or sideswipes me with the the really nasty stuff (for example "you have three failed relationships behind you - nobody else could put up with you for as long as I have"), I have sometimes self-harmed by hitting my head, or cowering on the floor or letting out primal screams,because my head is simply exploding with pain, but he sees this as the controlling behviour, designed only to make him feel bad.

He will puh and push and push until I finally retort with statements just as mean as his, but then claim I said them first - sometimes I think maybe he is right but I find it impossible to recall clearly what is said in these heated moments (he always claims to remember perfectly and accuses me of lying if I disagree)

I can understand how it could be interpreted that way. The other night I was really off with him in bed - this is because he has witheld sex for a year (apart from once in september)and I am feeling really pushed away, but when I tried to explain he immediately got defensive and then aggressive, and refused to take my feelings on board. But he says that what I did (being arsy, huffing and puffing etc) was just a means of being abusive to him.

So I really don't know whih way is up and who is the abuser - it could be me just as much. But then that is what emotional abusers try to make you feel isn't it?

So the point we have come to is that now every row ends in him berating my parenting skills and threats to take the baby away and use every means at his disposal to get custody. I don't think he would actually do this, but the anxiety it is causing me and the knocks to my confidence are extreme. I am terrified that he will bide his time until she is weaned and then I will be in trouble as me, with my disorganisation, my fondness for a drink, my occasional smoking, my inability to handle finances, would not match up to his perfect daddy status in the eyes of a court.

He has made me feel like perhaps I should make a pre emptive strike while I am still BFing so I don't risk losing her in the future. I don't want to do this, but I am so scared because I simply dont trust him any more. He says he does not mean the things he says in anger, and they should be forgotten, but I just don't know. He does not seem to realise there are consequences to his words. What should I do? All I want to do is for us to kiss and make up but we are not getting anywhere with our endeavours not to fall out.Is it him or is it me? I just don't know anymore.

Really sorry that was a war and peace effort.

Sfendona,thankyou for that.

Blimey - i want to pick up on so many things namechanged, just because they ring so many bells.

Firstly, i think you started a thread a while back about your counsellor actually making you worse? Have you had any counselling since that time? On your own? You clearly don't know which way is up right now. I think you need DECENT counselling. My counsellor is brilliant but i have had to listen to some pretty harsh home truths. My DP wont countenance even setting foot in the room, even though i have asked him to, but i dont bother pushing it because he thinks it is a load of old rubbish and probably thinks i spend an hour slagging him off evry week - sometimes i do but i am always brought back to see how my behaviour affects him. NOT because my counsellor thinks that i am terrible and he is perfect, but he isn't there so she can only work on my behaviour. He can be spiteful too at times - this weekend he called me a slob because i was vegging on the sofa - he was frustrated with me and things are stressful in the extreme for him at work just now, so i bit my tongue, he rang to apologise when i was at ballet with DD and that prevented the whole self pity cycle. So, YES, he was an arsehole he shouldnt have said that to me, he should have said, come on get your act together you are wasting the morning and i have to get out to work. But my reaction to it, by not rising to it affected his behaviour right back, he felt bad rang to apologise and the weekend was salvaged - that'l be round 1 to me then . So now i still find myself manipulating DP but in a positive way - my counsellor says i am the biggest control freak she has ever met - she is right, not being in control terrifies me.

Your DH's comments about your DD are disgusting, if i feel my parenting is being questioned i am like an injured tiger - that is, watch out anyone in close proximity because the fall out is terrifying. There have been times when i have felt he was criticising me, and this makes me react violently (i mean physically!). This can come from the poor sod suggesting i do somehting differently - i have learnt to appreciate criticism and not take it personally. I would not stand for this and you need to know that this is all blather on his part. Why in the world would he get custody - because you are disorganised??? Well, you and me both, my house is a pit, my life is a mess (but im working on it - i dont mean my life is terrible, i mean it is disorganised), i am the most disorganised person i know - i am a scientist, i think it goes with the territory, abstract thinking, absent minded. Stop listening to yourself about this, firstly, if you are disorganised SO WHAT?? if you want to change it, you can, its not impossible, im organised when i absolutely have to be. You are NOT a bad parent and actually, him suggesting you are is unforgivable and he is definately using this as a vehicle with which to emotionally blackmail and control you. That stinks of someone who is feeling desperately out of control themselves, he doesn't actually want to lose you but can't think of any other way in which to keep you around. He must have very low self esteem. But Really, in all my vileness towards DP i have never ever criticised him as a parent (well apart from calling him a soft touch ) as i think that is one step TOO FAR!!

I do recognise that your DH is abusive believe me, it is obvious from your posts - what i think has happened though is that you are both in this horrible cycle of behaviour where you are acting in such a way to defend yourself all the time, it is like you are looking for trouble, interpreting his every move. Maybe he was witholding the card - but what a pathetic silly thing to do, maybe he was gripped by the self pity that grips me, he wanted to punish himself so what better way than to upset you and have you in turn be horrid to him, then in his twisted mind justify his feelings by saying that YOU were the one who was being vile. He is blatantly too scared to admit to himself taht he is feeling shit because of his own reasons, be it that he hasn't dealt with losing his dad (i can't even talk to my counsellor about mine - i just wont, i refuse, i can't do it - im not ready), it could be he needs some sort of medical help - im on ADs, they help ALOT but im just (today actually) reducing my dose and starting the journey to get off of them, as i do realise that it is ME who is incontrol of me - having lamb chops for tea isn't going to make something bad happen (thats how screwed up i can be sometimes!).

Now I'm the one waffling on. I don't know what to say about you and your DH, maybe it has gone too far, only you know that - my DP and i have come seriously close to splitting twice and i know that i still love him because i cannot imagine him not in my life. I certainly dont imagine myself better without him. Better without the stress of our rows sometimes, but never better without him - perhaps thats the difference.

Please try and get access to some counselling for yourself - irrelavent of saving your marriage, but of saving your own self worth and your future. I don't believe your DH is an evil person, but right now he is damaging you and himself and that cannot go on.

I'm smiling inwardly where you mention the drinking, the finances and disorganisation - you are me aren't you? Well if you didn't smoke that is! These things are side effects of modern living - LOADS of EXCELLENT parents do them all! I know i do and woe betide anyone who suggests im a bad mum!

Namechanged, you know your situation better than me of course, but from what you have written, I think that your reactions sound absolutely natural for someone being subtly undermined and abused. Getting angry and distressed is a natural reaction to being backed into a corner from which you can't escape. My husband drove me to complete helpless rage on occasions, where I was inches away from violence - totally out of character for me.

I have also read that physical violence in an abusive relationship does not always come from the abuser as everybody has a point where they snap when faced with intolerable emotional mistreatment.

Also, are you sure that you generally lack empathy with everybody or is it that you are finding it impossible to connect with your partner because it it too dangerous to get close to him? I believed when I was with my husband that I was disorganised and lazy because he told me I was all the time. Now I am by myself I find I can manage everything for myself just fine.

My husband also regularly called me a bully -anyone who knows me will tell you that this is far from the truth. For what it is worth i think you should trust your instincts about who is mistreating who.

I don't think you should worry too much about his threats to take your baby away. A mother is always going to be seen as the primary carer for a tiny baby. (It did cross my mind though before I left that sooner was better than later as my children were only three and one and I thought no court in the land would take such little ones away from their mum.) My solicitor told me that I was clearly the primary carer as I had taken day to day care of them whilst he had gone to work. Keeping up this role in relation to your baby might be something to consider if you are thinking that you might leave.

And I don't think the courts would care a jot about you drinking and smoking occasionally unless it is really impairing your ability to look after your lo.

Just my thoughts. Feel free to ignore everything I have said if you want

"I have sometimes self-harmed by hitting my head, or cowering on the floor or letting out primal screams,because my head is simply exploding with pain, but he sees this as the controlling behviour, designed only to make him feel bad."

Oh God, I did this too namechanged. I honestly thought I was the only one. I don't feel the need to do it now at all - spot the connection!

"with my disorganisation, my fondness for a drink, my occasional smoking, my inability to handle finances, would not match up to his perfect daddy status in the eyes of a court."

You know what, I like these things too. None of that makes you a bad mum. And you always LEARN how to handle money. I had to, and I'm by no means perfect but can certainly manage without too many problems now.

I haven't read all the posts...but can I ask a question?

I have just told my DH after years of emotional instability and unhappiness that I want to end our marriage. We have come close to splitting before, with him trying to change and not,

but now he is being so so sweet and it is tearing at my heart.

How do I do this?

It hurts so much. I wanted the sadness and loneliness to go and thought he would rage at me, but he cries and I am confused.

Why does it hurt so much when I am the one that has said enough? I ached so much for the tenderness he shows now. And it is all screaming inside me.
I am a namechanger.

But it is HIM who pushes you to this.

When i met my lovely DH and my ex was still texting me i have sent him this text:

'You know what? I havnt had a drop of alchool since i ve left you, given up smoking, lost 2 stones, i wake up smiling, i am not grumpy, tearful, tired, i am not nagging (because i dont have to).Basically i am back to my old self - happy, confident, bubbly. Because i am not with a miserable f...er like you and am with a wonderful man'.

sorry my post was for the previous posters. Just seen the last two

This is what emotional abuse does. It MAKES YOU DOUBT YOURSELF. My ex-H told me too I lacked empathy, that I was a bully and an unfit mother - all total rubbish. I have my faults but not those. Also I was unfortunately pushed towards violence on a couple of occasions - once I managed to lacerate my foot on some broken crockery after I'd smashed up the entire kitchen and the other was when I bit his hand so hard he called the police (followed by a night in the cells and a conditional caution).

I was driven to these things by his cruel and dismissive behaviour towards me and whilst I don't suppose my behaviour can be excused, it's an example of how someone who's being abused can lose control out of despair. I shudder to think how I was then but as the policewoman who took my statement following my night behind bars said "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I'm a better person because of what I went through and am hopeful that I'll never doubt myself again or tolerate such treatment.

MitsubishiWarrioress (great name!)

The niceness thing is a trick they pull when they realise they've been rumbled and there's a very real chance you will leave.

often it does because you think..this is it, this is how I want it to be and this is the man I fell in love with.

Unfortunately, it is just an act.

That sould be..often it does work.

Keep making typing mistakes today.. I think some of my brain cells leaked out last night!

TheMitsubishiWarrioress. I tried to leave my husband probably about 6 times in the 15 years we were together. Every time he would tirelessly work to get me back, by convincing me that he loves me, and that our relationship could be fine with just a little bit of change on his part. The loss of the good things we had together (and there were some) just seemed too much to bear and I always went back. In the end though, something just died, and by the time I went last year I felt virtually no sadness for myself at all. I was horribly sad for him and sad for the children, but mainly relieved for myself.

You may just find that a point comes when you totally believe you have reached the end of the road, and the decision is easier.

Have you exhausted the alternatives like couselling?

Reality Your XH sounds like a four star psychopath . What a horrendous experience. So glad you have got away.

Reality..your XH almost makes my XP look like prince charming, which is some acheivement.

What a first class shit.

Reality.....

Dear all this thread resonates so much for me that I am afraid I cant join it - at the moment I am finding it too distressing!
I can only reiterate what every one who has got away has said - it is very hard and the hardest time to deal with these men is when you finally get the courage to leave.
For me it has been 10 long years , and 3 years of deperately trying to leave, I am still struggling to dela with him and the way he continues to treat me and his DD's even though we arent together.
The Lundy book has been a lifeline for me and I would thoroughly recomend it, he has some excellent tips and insights!
There is light at the end of the tunnel, I have a lovely NM who so far is standing by me and dealing with XH (despite taking a fair amount of verbal abuse from him himself), I dread the day they come face to face, though NM assures me he is not a fighter has no wish to fight, but will stand up for me, my DD's and himself if he needs to!
Be strong each and every one of you, I look at my DD's every day and I know that he enriched my life by giving me them even if he didnt mean to

Glad you have a lovely NM macdoodle. He sounds like an absolute star!

It is difficult to leave I think..because if there's one thing these men HATE it's losing control. That makes them very angry.

Would it make sense to say that it often felt like my CP treated me as a posession that had didn't do exctly what he wanted it to?

By CP of course I mean XP.

I keep coming back to this thread and it's breaking my heart -I am also going through this. I have been with (not Dear)H for 10 years and it took me at least 4 years to realise what was happening.

He is extremely manipulative. He slags off my friends and family and is barely civil when they come round -in fact he makes a point of going out. He constantly makes comments under his breath, then denies doing it. He says horrible things, then tells me I am mad when I get upset, or he says "We are you behaving like this?"

He also laughs in a really sneering way when I tell him he is out of order.

On Saturday night, I was reading a MN classic thread which made me LOL a few times. He got really irritated and told me to stop it and that I was irritating him, I was making too much noise and spoiling his evening. The way he looked at me with such contempt made me cry. He then had a go at me about how I always over-react.
I went to bed and he followed me - saying it was my fault he got annoyed and that I made him shout.

He blames me for his crap parenting skills -he says I don't help him enough when he can't cope with the kids. But he won't be told anything -he already knows it all, apparently.

He gets everything he wants, whether it is an item or clothing or his choice of holiday, by using manipulation and by calling me selfish if I don't give in.
He manages to kind of 'talk me out' of whatever I want eg I wanted a wooden floor, he wanted carpet -by either ridiculing my ideas or by being really nice and promising me the world if I give in.

He says I don't think things through and can't cope on my own and wouldn't manage without him. Truth is, I am fine when he isn't in the house.

Yesterday morning, I was still upset about Saturday night and he looked at me with disgust and told me to get on with it.
I also self-harm after an 'episode' with him and he has also driven me to scream and cry in rage. He will then laugh or tell me I need help.
He has taken my keys and phone and stopped me leaving the house before and once pushed me over -although he says it was an accident and I was over-reacting again.

So sorry for the long post -I've never told a soul about any of this before and there is so much more inside. I will be back later.

I send my best wishes and love to all of you who are also suffering.

I have found 2 mother's day cards which he did not bother to give me yesterday.
He constantly screams at t he children,rarely saying anything nice at all.
I can so understand the self harm thing too.
As I said in my previous post,I wish him dead frequently,because I know divorce would be awful and he would be so cruel and mean about everything.

Putdown Divorce might not be as awful as you think. I am in the middle of it now, and every time he is cruel or tries to cheat me in some way I just think - that's why I am not with him any more.

Do you have anyone (friends or family) who could help you. I stayed with my parents for a few months before getting back on my feet.
I also moved to be close to family. It was awful to leave my home, uproot the children and leave friends beind, but nothing is so awful as living every day with someone who doesn't love or respect you but uses you to boost his own ego. It also felt like a fresh start.

It seemed impossible at first (schools, money, somewhere to live etc) but in fact it fell into place. I am free to be a proper person again and the children are no longer witnessing things that they shouldn't have to...

i have made fresh start....but he still doesnt get it!

after months being told "you are full of sh$t" and much other stuff, agression and violence, - i left with dcs..long story... he has indirect contact, supervised being setup.

he sent via someone else for mothers day -
a book called "wedding season" - sub title "love is all you need". inside was a leaflet on couples counselling.

run by the alpha group which he has joined (church thing). it made my blood run cold...am taking this plus last week's text msgs regarding contact - which became more and more abusive - to police dv unit tomorrow

he got a "no harassment" no contact notice august 2008. is difficult to envisage total no contact when there are children - better he texts to say "running late2 on indirect contact drop off day so i know...but it doesnt give him room to

• call my parents and tell them how he "cant see his dd on her birtday and can they talk to me and tell me(?)

- tell me things like "you are punishing the dcs" (because i refused to take them to his new sunday school - i just said "it doesnt qualify as supervised contact" etcetc.

i normally go for "no response" to emails when they do not require a yes/no answer - i got such a horrendous voice mail msg but had to listen to transcribe it... that his situation re: not seeing dcs is somehow my fault...

so you get away but he still harasses and emotionally winds you up....what then?