Why do women bleat about their men?

[ManLikeFire]

Reading through these discussion pages is a rather saddening experience. Page after page of whines, complaints and gripes, all from women attributing their current non-problems to the characteristics or habits of their other half, without a great deal of self-reflection as to why their particular Oprah-esque drama might actually be a consequence of their own choices.

If your other half is lazy, surely you knew that when you picked him? Back in the jurassic era before you produced your offspring, his laidback attitude was probably something that attracted you too him.

If he is terrible with money, it doesn't take a forensic accountant to work that out after a few dates does it? Did you pick him for his miserly tendencies or because he was fun and didn't care too much about material things?

If he has an eye for other women, you can't help but have noticed that early on. It was probably something you liked then, feeling that you'd beat the competition.

You can not have your cake and eat it (although I suspect a number of you do!): you must accept responsibility for the decisions made a long time ago. Of course, if he turns out to be gay, or becomes immensely fat, then I think you have a legitimate complaint, as that was not what it said on the tin when you took your pick.

The bottom line is that when you whinge about him now, you are really criticising yourself for making that choice long ago on the basis of wishful thinking, that you'd change him or that he change when life moved on: "Oh, I'm sure he'll change when we're together or when we have kids." Men do not bank on change - they get together with a woman because they like them at the time (or they can't do any better). They don't then spend a lifetime trying to change them (unless they let themselves go).

Perhaps women should try the same.

here I mean...
hmm maybe I got it right the first time!

Yes, fancy someone making a controversial post and people responding to it! Gosh!

ooohh I just love the use of this lil sucker--->

soooo MN :p

Some people think that life is nothing without a couple-relationship, so they are prepared to overlook any old crap (including the other person's frantic attempts to escape) in order to be able to say they Have A Partner. And some people think that 'love' is some kind of outside power that forces you to move in with someone/marry someone/have children with him/her despite indications that he/she is nuts or stupid or selfish or cruel.
Many 'committed' relationships are a matter of inertia rather than anything else: one partner wanted to get a house or 'settle down' or breed and the other wasn't fussed either way but going along with it was less hassle than splitting up (and was of the mindset that it happens to everyone sooner or later and this individual will do as well as anyone else). Once one partner proves to be selfish or lazy or unkind or crap in bed, the other partner might be able to get it together to leave, but might well feel that it's scary and impractical and anyway life isn't supposed to be fun... So the bleating continues.

yes, "bleating" IS a an unfortunate expression, as is "moaning"..as these are done by females..>.

but the riling thing is when the criticisms of dp/dhs become blanket, such as 'all men are..', 'well that's men for you..' etc., and yes, to a strong degree, there is such a thing as free will. No-one can make you do things that you don't choose to agree to, or very rarely. There are always alternatives.

Solidgold's cynical assertions make me wonder why any one bothers to get divorced/split up at all but it's more common now than ever before, or so it seems.

If everybody was more concerned with their partner's and their family's happiness before their own, there would be a lot less to 'bleat' about. If everybody was reciprocally kind and thoughtful, there wouldn't be much to complain about would there?

I've gone the other way, EW. I tend to think there's not much reason to get together with anyone these days. Everyone turns into someone else, in the end. Nothing is constant, except change

Probably because we would rather men didn't have such opinions about our 'bleating', FioFio

Let's face it OP osted to get a reaction and they did. End of.

And is no doubt pretty bloody pleased with themselves for getting it!

Elasticwoman I said 'some' people and 'many' relationships; didn't use the word 'all' in either case. Some people/relationships are perfectly content. Though one tends to hear more from the unhappy ones.
I think the bottom line is that the idea that pairbonding is inevitable and compulsory causes a lot of trouble: quite a large number of people would be happier and better off remaining single.

Yay motherinferior!

Actually I'm changing mine to HilarySwallow'sZipUpDressingGown

I agree with the OP. When I split with my first husband it wasn't because of any newly developed character traits. He was a similar bloke to the one I'd married. I just wanted something different a few years down the line. It wasn't about his deficiencies, it was about my changing wants and desires. I felt no need to slag him off for this.
I would never slag my current husband off on line and would be hurt if I found he did so.
Women are more inclined to play the martyr than men and blame everything on their bloke rather than accept they chose the bloke and if they aren't happy it's as much their problem and fault as his.

Ah-hem, no many men don't bank on change and are completetly useless when their wives change as she becomes a mother, when he slips down the importance list for a while, when her body is a little tired, when she hopes he'll be responsible.....
I have a friend whose DH bleats on about her going to the gym after a day at home with three children three and under, he even had an affair as his wife was not as exciting as she used to be (she's on maternity leave with their last baby).
Why wouldn't anyone assume that change occurs when you have children?

Solidgold I was referring to your assertions that people stay together out of apathy; it may well be true but still an awful lot of couples do split up.

You also say that there's a culture of feeling obliged to be in a couple, but my brother and dh's sister are both single and always have been, at 50 and 47 respectively. Neither has ever even brought a prospective partner home, let alone cohabited, married or reproduced. I have friends like that too, of both sexes. I think there is less pressure on people to pair up these days than in former generations.

Just out of interest, EW, has either your DB, SIL or any of your single friends never mentioned being a bit sick of being asked when they are going to 'settle down'? You may be sufficiently polite and empathetic not to ask them every time you see them if they've 'met anyone nice lately' or to make repeated attempts to enforce pairbonding on them by inviting them to parties and shoving some individual at them because he/she is of the appropriate gender and single, but there are going to be plenty of other people they know who do this shit all the time.

I have been lucky enough to get to the age of 43 without ever having to live with a partner or marry, but I still have to put up with both people I know dropping heavy hints about dating agencies and people I have just met asking about 'your partner' and then going on and farking on about it when I say politely that I'm happily single.

Solidgold you raise an interesting point about single people being subjected to others' feeble attempts to pair them off and I'm sorry your social circle feel compelled to interfere so tactlessly.

Dh is a terrible gossip and is always asking me for updates on the lovelife of single friends. (At this point he has come and read this over my shoulder and reminds me of pathetic matchmaking attempts in the past but they were decades ago, honestly!)

These days I very often forget to enquire about the love lives of single friends and relatives, and never hear them bemoaning their single status. SIL has 2 cats and a dog. Although MIL maintains that SIL would really rather have a partner and children, we all know it was never going to happen. But then, she appears to be very celibate. A maiden aunt is one thing, but a single parent is something else, Solidgold.

EW: Well I am a single parent - had not planned to be a parent at all but as it is, I have a wonderful DS and a good co-parent relationship with his dad (though the two of us are most definitely not a couple). Some people seem to think that we either should just form a couple or that we will do in the end, others keep on with the 'have you thought of xxx dating agency'? It gets tiresome.)
Your SIL may be having rampant sex every weekend and just not telling any of you (perhaps this rampant sex is with other women and there is homophobia in her family) - or she may be, like a sizeable minority of people, simply not interested in sex or couplehood at all.

ManLikeFire - Surely you mean an old boys' club or are you the only member?

I suggest ManLikeFire was dumped by his girlfriend/wife for being that lazy tightwad - insisting on going dutch on the bill whilst simultaneously eyeing up the waitress.

Perhaps men should try sharing their troubles.

People always have, and always will make impertinent comments. Vera Britten records that when she had her 2nd child, some one said to her: "One more, and you'll have done!" It happens to every one at all stages of life. So many of us think we know best for other people. I'm sure you also have friends and relations who accept your situation, Solidgold, and you sound well able to think up snappy put-downs for those who don't. In previous generations you would have been a social pariah, like The French Lieutenant's Woman, or forced to marry - both of which sound like far worse fates than you are suffering now.

As for SIL, she neither complains nor boasts of being single so we don't offer any advice or comment on that. Once she did go on a singles holiday and came back with some entertaining stories about all the awful men on it.

You have a point. You do. Logically, you either accept the behaviour, or you leave. I agree. I would say though, that it is NOT a woman's fault how the man behaves, he is responsible for his OWN behaviour. It is however, her choice to accept that behaviour.

Thing is, it may be logical to leave (or to not get involved in the first place!), but people don't always do the logical thing. People quite often do the emotional thing. And the emotional thing is to want to love and be loved and to be treated well by the person that they love. Quite often, you don't want to leave the person, you want the person to love you enough to change those things that make you unhappy, so that you can stay together and enjoy those things about them that make you happy.

It would be easier if you could just walk away at the first hint of trouble. If you could make yourself not care. But it is not always that easy to turn off your feelings and be logical.

And yes, sometimes you think you can change him, sometimes you think if you could change enough about yourself, he would want you and want to be good to you. And yes, you probably should just leave, but people are like that, they stay.

And you are right that men don't spend time trying to change women like women spend time trying to change men. Could that be because women don't generally need changing because they don't routinely treat their partner so badly and therefore the man does not feel so unloved and unwanted that he is desperate for things to change?

I do not bleat.

I sometimes yield to the urge to describe and/or excoriate the failings that my partner does, yes, occasionally manifest.

And frankly the OP displays absolutely no awareness/willingness to engage with the fact that parenthood so frequently skews the domestic arena. Perhaps s/he should spend some time reading the posts properly.

And also, sweetie, it's really frightfully naive and old-fashioned to operate on the basis that all our children are the result of a long thought-out commitment and dating. Here in the 21st century I think you'll find that quite a few of us got up the duff with really quite recently acquired gentleman friends.

I think the OP definitely has a point. But why restrict it to bleating about partners? They are only a small part of life.

Surely when we chose to procreate we should have known that this tiny mixture of sperm and egg would one day be likely to grow into a teething baby, a tantrumming toddler, a grouchy teenager? When we whinge about it we are really criticising ourselves for making the choice of having them. So why bleat about it- you should have seen it coming folks!

That's it. Problem sorted. Mumsnet closes down and I can finally get some work done.