FAB & GLAM PART 8 - Onwards and Upwards!

[ginnny]

8000 posts - how do we find so much to talk about

oh dear sorry

Hallo everyone, Witchey, - you must be very quick-fingered!

Bamzooki, welcome. Sorry to learn your experience. You will find a lot of support on this thread, even though we all come from different experiences and have not all had OW to deal with (some of our OWs, like Ginnny's & mine, come bottle shaped).

Baffy, great news about the job. How is DS now at nursery? Has he settled in properly? DD seems settling well into her 6th form. I went in last Thursday and it felt strange to be there as a parent, instead of the student I was myself 30+ years ago. The place even SMELLED the same. They are much more high powered now - head was bragging about how their results were on a par with Rugby! Pressure or what? I sat with the father of one of DD's friends, and agreed that (as the naughty kids in the hall) we weren't going to put that much pressure on our girls. After all, your teens should be fun as well.

DP & I getting on quite well at the moment, much better than after our first Relate. Indeed, am beginning to wonder if Relate is what we need at all. Really feel that DP needs to address his depression, as that may go a long way to sorting out our personal problems. The good thing about Relate, though, is that if I hadn't got him to go along, this would have all built up until he exploded and packed his bags.

Hi everyone

H is still a bit down - in fact what you just said tannee makes me think we could do with a session of counselling again.

Apparently i made a comment on friday - it made him feel bad and then on sunday night he picks a fight about it (i cant even remember the comment and neither could he completly). I said i was sorry it was not meant as a mean comment but he should have told me at the time so i could have reassured him then and hopefully learnt how to not do it again iyswim.
He did reluctenly agree - but i feel that he is somehow trying to pick little arguments for the sake of it.

I know that often there are reminders to the past - and it seems that there is little that is 'safe' conversation iyswim.

I dont want to keep bringing it up but i also dont think it should be a taboo subject. He just feels that i am 'beating him about it' all the time - which i promise you i am not - in fact i would say he brings it up more than i do. But they do still work together and when i ask him what he has done at work it is not to 'catch him out' it is becasue i am trying to be the caring wife (which i was not in the past!!!!!). I am dammed if i do and dammed if i dont.
I also wonder if he is now using this an excuse too.

I am hoping it is more to do with the fact that he is not happy at work and the new job will help.
But i am finding it a bit waring at the moment and just like him fed up with it all.
I know we cannot go back (and i wouldnt want to anyway - i have made some positive changes) but i sometimes feel we are tip-toeing around the real issues again.

HW, I think you're a blardy marvel woman. With all the c**p you're still going through and you're out there on other threads helping out with great advice.

Just had to "pop" in and give you a virtual pat on the back

Thanks it sort of keeps me going - MN was a life saver during my really dark times in the wee small hours so its the least i can do.

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HW sorry to hear you are feeling low still. Are you getting any time to yourself to do nice things? I find this helps me, though it can be counter-productive if I drink too much as sometimes my mind goes to dark places and suddenly I'm planning to leave h Then I sober up the next day and realise that's a silly plan, but I still don't feel really happy. I think the counselling might help both of you if the topic is hard to discuss - and with ow working with h the problem is still very current as it's a constant reminder.

Baffy - great news about work You are being so strong even though your heart is breaking. So sad that he finally seems to have sorted himself out but too late Sounds as if he is still hopeful that you might give him another chance. I wonder if it will sink in that you have made your decision or whether he will keep trying. Ow is stupid sending texts like that. Shame you can't automatically divert all texts from her directly to h without having to read them first. Hope ds still getting on ok at pre-school. My ds really enjoying school

Witchy - sorry but he sounds like a complete and utter twunt. Get rid and get a decent bloke. I think there are still some alive somewhere

Hi everyone else

Thank you everyone for you lovely comments. And I'm sorry that everyone here has just a sad story to tell. I haven't yet had time to read the previous thread so I can follow everything, but I will.

In some ways I can see that I have it easy compared to what I have seen so far. Makes me feel a bit for complaining.

Anyway - I've realised why, partly at least I have been struggling so much recently. I always knew that H could charm the birds out of the trees if he chose (big IF) - and lately I think I have been sucked in by that. These days he is on best behaviour with me - being super helpful and co-operative, giving me extra money etc, mostly to ease his guilty conscience I expect, and is saving the moods and temper for his new partner. Was going to call her OW but she wasn't really, although I strongly suspect he had eyes in that direction when he went. Poor girl - I kind of feel sorry for her - having met her she really is no match for him.

So as long as I keep in mind that I am only seeing the sanitised version then it helps me keep things in perspective. And my check list of Reasons obviously.....

It's daft that I even feel this strongly for him in some ways - the affair 3 yrs ago was not his first infidelity, though to be fair there had been nothing since before the DC.

HW - you never cease to amaze me - that you can be here giving such balanced lucid advice to so many people, when you have your own problems to contend with. It does sound like you need more talking time with your H - if a subject is that sensitive, then imo it hasn't been dealt with iyswim?

Baffy - well done with the meeting - that must have felt so good, to have your instinct vindicated like that. And the OW sounds utterly poisonous. The sort of person for good sense is but a hazy idea, so well done on not reacting in the way that most people would want to.

Witchy, ginny, Tannee - don't really know your history yet, but you sound like you have been going through the mill too at times. At least we have somewhere to offload with people who can grasp what it's like.

Bamzooki. It sounds like your H is very manipulative and trying to use his charm to confuse you (and almost succeeding).
Try and hang on to the reasons why you split and focus on how he is treating his new partner, that is more likely the real him.
I empathise with you though - it is easy to see him as the man you once loved, but you have to question which one is real, the charming one or the moody nasty one.
I feel really down today. XP was on msn last night and as usual he is twisting everything to make it all my fault. He is strongly denying that he has done anything wrong but can't give me a logical explanation for these texts. He is using the fact that I have been cheated on in the past, saying that has made me paranoid.
Everyone in rl is just telling me to move on meet someone else, I'm better off without him etc (I think they are all exasperated by me now), but it still hurts so much.
I'm dreading Christmas as the boys will be with their dad and his new gf in the afternoon and I'll be lost without them.
I didn't want to be like this at 38, a lonely miserable single parent. I feel cheated.
God I am all doom and gloom aren't I. Just ignore me I'll soon snap out of it I hope!

Ginny you are bound to feel down you just need to give yourself some time. So your little dalmation WAS sick in the end, at least you know it was a virus rather than an allergy.

I think we are all feeling a bit Bleurgh at the moment arent we?

I do feel a bit better for having had a couple of days sunshine and even forced myself out into the fresh air on the weekend...actually was pressured into it by the rest of the family as I just wanted to stay at home, glad I went in the end though it really lifted my mood.

Glad things went OK with work Baffy, you really didnt need that on top of everything else did you.

Hi to everyone else (sorry not much help at the moment)

Thanks Wily. I am always the same, angry and tough for a few days then the big come down and the self pity starts.
lol at Dalmation. You'd never know anything happened now. The spots have completely disappeared. Now he's got a cold, bless him .
My Mum is coming for tea tonight so I'll probably chew her ear off and make myself feel better!!

Ginny - I haven't had the courage to contemplate Christmas. I can't imagine how that is going to work for us. And the thought of Christmas morning, with the dc opening presents without their Dad there etc is going to be hard to accept.
Is there somewhere you can go while your boys are with their Dad? Friends you can visit or family? So you don't have to be alone.

You will get through this - and by the sounds of it you will be much better off without your XP, and will be able to be much happier in the end.

I'm trying not to view the single parent thing as a 'loss' of marriage, but a gain in the freedom to do things how and when I want to, without having to accommodate the vaguaries of a man.

Bamzooki, are you really planning to read all the Fab&Glam threads? How long have you got ?? the first Christmas is the worst, but you can concentrate on making new family traditions for yourself without him. You already sound like you're being positive about looking at single parenthood as having new possibilities.

Ginnny, ditto for you - could you have a fab time with your Mum or other family or friends? Of course it won't be the same, and you will miss having him there, but the important thing is to fill the time. Ignore his MS stuff - he's just trying to make himself feel better - he KNOWS what he'd done. And you will move on, but in your own time - you need to grieve first.

HW, it does sound like you need a 'tuning' session with Relate. It sounds like he feels that he will never live down his guilt and your forgiveness. Maybe a third party could help.

Wily, Dior & everyone else, hi. We need more sunshine to cheer ourselves up. Where has it gone?

Ladylush, hi, can I bend your ear about how to get decent counselling for DP on the NHS? We're coming to the conclusion that that is what he needs, rather than Relate, but his previous experience 20 years ago was so bad, that he's inclined not to bother. Any pointers?

tanee - i would have thought the firstport of call be his GP.
There are some consellors who will do a session first to see if it is for you, i think.

Would he consider self help - there are some great books out there and i tend to be a cynical - most of what the counsellors seem to tell you is out of a book somewhere. Says me who has spent a fortune on all sorts.

Then there is always mumsnet - and thats free Go on we will give all the counselling sessions he needs .

I do think if my h would just open up a bit more to someone it would help him.
Its as if he just wants an excuse to be grumpy at the moment. Also because the dynamics have changed quite a bit he is learning that i do have another life that i like and i am not always at his beck and call and sorting out his problems, and he doesnt always like it. Too bad i say - the reason we got into this mess was because i had given up a fair amount of myself for the things he wanted - and i am not doing it again.
He can be miserable on his own - i will not rise to his bait.

I am off out tonight and already he is not liking it and is trying to make excuses to be late. Not to worry i have already got babysitter on hold.

HW I would love to get him onto MN . TFM has already said she'd love to analyse him!

Trouble is, he types so slowly, he'd never be able to keep up with you lot. Not sure about books. He says he tried a couple but they didn't seem pertinent enough. I actually think he does need to be sat down in front of someone in order to open up. His experiences were 20 years ago and I would hope things have improved since then, but he said his previous GP had to refer him to the local mental hospital for assessment, they then referred him to a counsillor for therapy and all she did was sit in silence while he tried to find something to say. Put him right off trying again.

Why do men fall in love with strong indpendent women, marry them, turn them into doormats then go looking for excitement elsewhere then complain when their wives get tough and turn back into the very women they fell in love with? I'll never understand them!!!
A friend of mine has offered to spend Christmas day with us, she is at a loose end too or I could spend it with my Mum, but I know I'll be miserable wherever I am.
I wish I could cancel the whole bloody thing this year. I don't need it emotionally or financially!!
Tannee - have you tried these people?

I think you need to find a counsellor that you trust and like, there are so many different methods.

Actually the first one dh and i used we loved and thought was great but as we became more used to the opening up to each other anyway and 'doing our own therapy' we could see her faults and actually think she was wrong in a couple of instances.

We have used another one since - and although i think she is good and more proffessional it is hard having to go over everything again in detail.

It sounds as if there is a lot of stuff from the past it could take a while anyway and may get worse before the benifits can be seen.

Before h affair he had some conselling at work about being more assertive (getting what you want - that kind of thing) - well it certainly bloody worked for him. It was one of those - feel the fear and do it anyway type things. You dont gain anything if you dont go for it ..... you get the idea.
I think unless the consellor is really good it can make things worse iyswim.

But like i say worth a try - and good luck with getting a good one.

Hi Tanee - if you want NHS counselling you need to go via the GP. The GP (dp to try to give the GP a clear idea of the problem and what kind of help he needs) By that, I mean try to identify what type of therapy would be useful. For instance I personally do not find psycho-dynamic counselling helpful at all and it sounds like this is what he had before. I prefer humanistic/Rogerian counselling which is person-centred and very affirming. The GP (who are often clueless about MH issues and refer everything to MH teams) will probably only want to offer anti-depressants. If your dp doesn't want those (which I can well understand as some of them cause erectile dysfunction which tbh is the last thing someone with depression needs), and is asking for counselling the GP will refer on. But does he need counselling or does he need psychotherapy? They are not the same thing at all. I agree with HW when she says to shop around as not all counsellors are good and we all respond to different types of counselling. Also getting a good but basic book which describes different types of therapy would be useful. A lot of people ask for counselling, when actually what they need is more specific types of therapy. Just for info: I saw a psychodynamic counsellor on the NHS earlier this year following discovery of h's affair. Found it absolutely useless. Lots of "Hmmm"s and not much else. Then together we saw two ladies (who incidentally were a lesbian couple though I'm sure that is incidental and completely irrelevant!)who used the humanistic style with a bit of transactional analysis thrown in and were absolutely fantastic. We both felt so understood and validated but at the same time they were tough where needed. It was very powerful.I don't think counselling should ever be mediocre. You go because you need support/direction and want to effect change in your life so it has to have a strong impact in order for that to happen. The therapeutic alliance between the subject and the counsellor is crucial to the process so it's important that dp feels comfortable and safe. Otherwise he will need to review whether to continue with that person. Am waffling on so will stop in a mo (my head all over the place since going back to work after being off for a week and ds starting school)but one more crucial thing is that dp has to be motivated and honest. Otherwise it's a waste of time. Good luck and feel free to ask any other questions

HW - your attitude towards dh is fully justified. Of course you deserve to have your own life independent of the life you have with him. Why would you rely solely on him - especially when he let you down so much in the past? As I said before, I think you are amazing to cope as you do with 4 dc and keeping your marriage afloat, but you are not a robot and something has to give. It's not surprising that you feel low from time to time. I hope you have a happier period around the corner

Also welcome Bamzooki - sorry you are here but a nice bunch on this thread and very good support. Your xh sounds quite toxic so I agree with the others - enjoy his indulgences and take them for what they are. He has not transformed. He is still a toad Other men not meeting your standard, doesn't mean you should be back with h. Two separate things. Maybe you are like me and very fussy It's not that I'm all that, I just find that the combination of things I like in a person is not easily found! Though it should be much easier now that is transpires h is a lying philanderer - lots of those around

Hi Ya All

Sorry to see so many people so

I haven't been about for a bit b/c dd was in hospital with breathing problems, but is back tonight. It has put everything else into perspective. She was poorly during the night while I was asleep. The ambulance arived that quickly that dh didn't have time to leave a note, so I woke up to find they were both gone. I had a heart in mouth moment. Especially as he wasn't answering his phone. Turned out that he had tried to wake me, but failed ( I gave my brother a black eye once for doing the same before you think he was a bar steward). He decided to wait until I woke up before callng me, but fell asleep himself. I woke up at 6 and started panicing. I nearly called mountain rescue ( because his car keys were still at home) and the police, but decided to call his friend first. She talked me down from major league panic. He called me 20 minutes later to let me know where he was.

So after all the excitement of the last few days, we have sat down and really talked. I think my panic behaviour was out of order and he thinks his daliance is out of order. So things are in the Frangapani household. Long may it continue, because life is too short for point scoring.

And if you got to the end of that give yourself a shiney.

Big hugs to you all and thanks so much for your help. xxx

thanks ladylush - wow i am going to ask you about what counsellor to get next time.

I know it is normal to feel a bit down and to have my own independent life, but knowing it and feeling comfortable with it dont always go together.
I feel as if i am often justifing the fact that i am doing x y z with that exact fact that i cant and dont want to rely on h as much. But it feels so false iyswim.
I know it is for the best but it is not me.

I suppose i am so used to being 'used' for want of a better word that anything else feels odd.
I already feel a bit guilty because i am meeting a friend again today - h jokes a lot that i live the life of luxury. I know i am lucky to be able to do what i want but i also feel as if i should be doing something about getting a job, and then i feel angry that i feel trapped by the fact that i dont have a job but i also dont want to rush into anything iyswim.

Hello, y'all miss me? (Say yes please, it's good for my ego.)

I never feel the need to give advice to Tanee because she handles a difficult (though it does sound worthwhile) relationship with incredible skill. If it doesn't all work out perfectly it won't be for want of wisdom or caring.

I worry about that teacher though. Zero tolerance for lateness is one thing, but refusing to speak to a child - after a first offence too - is totally unprofessional and even a trifle irrational. I would certainly have a sharp word, and early, with the head teacher. I know we're not talking about small children but teenagers can be sensitive too, and still need a good example from adult role models.

I confess to having a sort of soap-opera fascination with Baffy's tale... yon H hardly seems to have any emotions at all, he will do anything for self gratification. I can't help feeling he didn't "make the right choice" when he ^^ chose - he knows which side his bread is buttered, he knows he has to work to keep that going, and I do believe it's the marriage that gives him happiness as well as money and stability. But the other relationship gives him something too, something perverse - definitely not happiness - an ego boost probably - and he knows he doesn't have to try at that one. He can afford to keep the poor little crazy woman on hold because when he's ready to snap his fingers she will be back like a shot. Wifey is not so pathetic. I don't believe for one minute that he would turn down the chance to get his ego-shag just as soon as he thought he could get away with it.

Oh and for what it's worth (and long after everyone else has long finished on the subject), I think you're absolutely right to be sorry for the wench. It's not nice to see someone so young brought to that kind of mental and emotional mess. However you have to know that you, of all people, are not going to be able to do anything for her and for your own sake shouldn't even try. It is probably too late anyway, unfortunately, but in any case she will never let the wife of the man she's obsessed with do her any actual good.

Oh - Ginnny - 38 is just a number, you know. You didn't want to be alone at 37 either, and you weren't; you don't want to be alone at 39, and there's every possibility you won't be. Just don't let the self-destructive idiot keep you from moving on. M'self I'm 49, and I do sort of worry if I've done with relationships for good (I only ever had the one so I'm not terribly practised in getting to know men!) But when/if it bothers me too much I've promised myself I will pick up the phone to the nearest reputable dating agency. I may never meet the handsome prince but I'll have a frog by my side every evening of the week if I want.

Has that filled up the new thread yet?

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Hi Annie, yes we missed you! Happy now ?

Thanks all of you for your advice re counselling/therapy for DP. We survived our 3rd Relate yesterday and it's beginning to feel positive. She didn't scold us for not doing our homework, but has set us more - we have to do a little pyramid of what we see as problems, how they make us feel, what we think might help etc. DP said again that he feels that every time he kicks off and I don't shout back, he feels worse for treating me so badly, and I go up my pedestal of goodness. I told him I don't like being on a pedestal, I have no head for heights! He feels out of control in the house - that his needs aren't considered. So we have to look into that more - I feel like I'm always considering him (like keeping the cats out of the bedroom) - but if it doesn't come across to him that way, then we have to address that.

Anyway, thanks Ladylush in particular, for your advice about counselling/psychotherapy. I suspect what he needs is the therapy and that what he had before was psychodynamic counselling. He certainly doesn't need ADs - not at present, anyway. He's feeling in a more positive place now, but does need to work through what it is in his past that makes him so unhappy about living with me/living with himself.

And he hasn't felt the need to lock himself away and brood after that first session; we've had nice evenings and we're going to the cinema tonight. A friend of his has had rave reviews for her first film role and we're going to see it (it's called 'Unrelated').