There We Are Then - part 4, but episode 278946, probably.

[mummy917]

For anyone who is still offering messages of hope, wisdom and general loveliness 🥰

And make sure you get the comments about rugby costs recorded in a text too

I can remember a therapist saying to
me once…
There are thoughtless people and thoughtful people and it’s impossible to turn one into the other.
This twat actually believes what he says because he only thinks about himself.
He is NEVER going to say listen I know I’ve been a twat but shall we keep things civil and work together now for the kids?
Never.
I re-read the Lundy Bancroft book recently and it is so accurate. These conversations with you are about asserting his control over you. If he was doing the right thing by leaving, he’d be happy to do 50:50, pay his way, be flexible etc but he did the right thing FOR HIM only by leaving.
Honestly I’d like to shove him down the stairs in his old wardrobe. Head first.
Remember you are thoughtful.
He is thoughtless.

His reaction to a reasonable request that he contribute to things the kids need/needed (which he should be doing with pleasure as he is their father AND he is insisting on 50/50) is simply to attack. What has anything to do with the relationship got to do with him financially paying his half for the kids, for paying towards a rugby hoodie or whatever? Zero. He is their Dad and he needs to start acting as a grownup. Sadly I doubt any reasonable communication in person is likely as you cannot negotiate with a fool. Keep it to texts. Keep things short and to the point. And keep his replies at evidence. You have been an absolute Trojan through all of this, you alone have tried to make things as smooth as possible for the sake of your kids. At every turn he has put himself first. He really should be ashamed.

Please send a text asking for all the moneies you are owed.
List all monies you are owed over the past 6 months, requesting he contribute towards his children.
Keep every copy of these.
He can say what he wants, your children will know the truth.
You will have your own receipts.

You are still struggling with all of this due to being so conditioned by abuse by him.
Therapy will help you with this.
Well worth asking for help at work.
You are amazing.

Have you looked into the freedom programme?

Mummy917, I was in a relationship with a guy like this. He hated me because he could not control me. He stopped seeing our son but said he was keeping a file and would tell him when he was grown how awful I was and how he had no choice but to cut contact. I showed my son every day what sort of person I was by being there and being his parent. True to form, he did meet up with him when grown and try to present his curated version of reality. He was astounded when my son wasn't interested in it. You got this.

Still, what did he have to say about paying his half? Or did he use all that talk about how awful you are to deflect the issue?

Yes the ideal is not to speak to him. If you must, it should be Grey Rock.
Righto.
That old Chestnut.
Whatever.
Because these abusive men, have a knack for manipulating any conversation.
With mine, (Much too late) I realised what he was accusing me of was really outside noise. & if I said, “Back to the point, this conversation was “you still owe me £500”, it knocked the wind out if his puffed up pigeons chest.
@ bring it back to the essential point.

Do not be led on the false path, which he deliberately leads you down to deflect from the actual issue.
If you pay attention to his method you will see the pattern.

He’s dragging up anything to upset you to avoid paying the money he owes.

@mummy917

You'll get your equilibrium back. Give yourself time and grace to put what he said into its 'proper place' (in the 'bin' in your head). Remember, you have been subject to his manipulations or a long, long time. And simply knowing something is not the same as having it in its proper place in your head. That takes time.

As far as him trying to gaslight the children about you when they are older, listen, they will have had their own lived experiences with him by then, enough to know who the selfish and controlling one really is. And it will not be you that they point their fingers at. The behaviours he's exhibited to you are so ingrained in him that it will be impossible for him not to exhibit them to the DC. And it will be you who will be showing caring and unselfishness to them. So put your fears about that to rest. He's not going to be able to convince them of anything.

I have never known children in this situation to grow up and say mum, I know you did the caring, paid the bills, took us to the doctors, came to our concerts and looked after our every need but our tattoo’d dad told us he left you because of your nagging and we totally think he’s a stand up guy.
I am a generation older and the kids I know have little/no relationship with their dads. Without their mums saying one bad word.
Kids know - they see, they sense, they soak in the atmosphere. And over time they work it for themselves.

This. Op each time you ask for something he shouts at you to avoid paying up so he gets you upset so you give in. Op please don’t let him treat you like that. stop the calls and remember you’re going to get to see all his spending. He will be in for a shock when this happens.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=6B0tAn0nrJY

I apologize for the click-bait titled youtube link. I am not someone who normally watches online videos, but I found this one immensely helpful for practical advice to recognize and counteract the tactics used by manipulative people. I actually found the video quite difficult to watch as each segment would bring back memories of times I was manipulated and how I felt, so I watched it in small bursts over several days.

Key takeaways are that manipulation:

1. Is extremely goal-oriented, will not consider alternatives

Counter: “What other options do we have?”

1. Will try to dictate your mental state, tell you what your motivations are

Counter: “Why do you say that?” or “I disagree.”

1. Will present their opinions on events as facts

Counter: “How do you know?”

1. Uses ambiguous social proof

Counter with ambiguous social proof for the opposite

1. Works best 1 on 1

Counter by seeking a third party witness/offer to bring someone else into the conversation

1. Exaggerates and fabricates, especially to create false memories

Counter by being excessively skeptical and using deception indicators

It sounds like you silenced him on this last call by bringing up facts (I was devastated, I requested marriage counseling, I needed medication) in response to his opinion-as-fact that you’re awful and unfeeling and the breakdown of your marriage is all your fault. He also used ambiguous social proof when he said “oh the kids will see how it is when they’re older.” He has to use this hypothetical situation because all the real-world social proof is on your side: his friends who didn’t show up to help him move, your mum who told him off, his mum who’s sick of being used for unpaid childcare, and even the current experience of your children who are seeing you consistently showing up, putting them first, and providing everything they need (and a lot of what they want!) while he’s dropping them off at gran’s, paying for tattoos, and going out to concerts.

It is every time I remind him of the half of things he still needs to contribute for. I have started to worry that he will use things against me in the financial order for things I’ve bought, such as my new bed and things for the house since he left. Things he would’ve said when we were together were “unnecessary” or he will make out I have been “ttreating myself”.

Op if you follow jessrunsforsurvivors on instrgram - she does 1.1 sessions which could be helpful.

there is also legallynik who often does q&as

How will he even know?

And remember, in the court scenario it literally matters not one tiny fuck what he thinks. All they’ll be interested in is the financial needs of the children and whether he’s paid his share. Full stop.

He’s making you feel small and cornered and cowering. You are none of those things. Shake it out your finger ends, start your There Were Are Then response back up and try not to be afraid of the court. It’s there to help victims. That’s you. 💕

What has your solicitor said about 50/50 contributions on things the children need ie rugby top etc. what is the law on this, is it voluntary or are there guidelines?

He's lashing out at you for daring to point out his failure to contribute financially or to repay the initial costs you had to bear as a result of his decision to leave.

His method is to attack, attack, attack until you feel like shit. (It's a crap method driven by his own shame - he knows what a selfish fuck he is, he just can't face the truth of it.)

The courts will take a very dim view of his behaviour.

Try not to worry. Have a cup of tea and a nice cake. Early days. You'll find your way with it all.

It's DARVO isn't it? Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. If he attacks you and makes you out to be the one who was so unreasonable he had to abandon his wife and children he keeps you doubting yourself, lacking in confidence, struggling to stand up for yourself. Which is where he wants you.
I think he's a skilled manipulator and the more space you have away from him the more you will realise.
I think there will be guilt but it will be buried so deep he will try his best not to let it surface, so will lash out at you instead.

No judge is going to raise an eyebrow over a parent for investing in a comfortable home setting for themselves and their children. However, they may take a different view on a parent who spends several hundred pounds on tattoos that means they are unable to contribute to the costs of raising their own children.

Please cut yourself some slack, OP x

Op you are entitled to buy what you need for your home a new bed is considered as a fresh start why would you want to sleep in the marital bed. Your home is yours to do what is necessary and your choice. You are not getting personal items above your kids like he is. He’s the one that will be worried when you have to swap bank statements. It seems like others have said he is deflecting when you ask for money so why not once a month text him just before his pay day say you owe x amount for your children’s whatever you bought screen shot receipts then the older stuff like beds etc get from the divorce. He really has done a number on you this week. Don’t let him also. Op do not subsidise him. His choice to do this to you. You owe him fuck all.

Defo DARVO... The minute you question something he hasn't done, he goes on the defensive and attacks...

You can buy what you want for your home with your money it has absolutely nothing to do with him or the money he needs to contribute towards the children . 50/50 isn’t just nights it is also about expenses , which he will eventually be told .

So he’s punishing you for wanting him to pay his share of the DC’s costs.

Keep on tracking. When it comes to court, you’ll be able to evidence his inability to keep the Dc for 50/50 and his inability to pay for 50/50.

It definitely seems that way when I take a step back and look at what was said. Then he said to me “I only rang to speak about his rugby on Sunday, not to get into a full blown argument but you always seem to turn it into one.” He did this A LOT when we were together, whenever I tried to give my side of things, I was automatically “starting an argument.” It became easier to just say nothing.

Have you spent £400 on a tattoo????