There We Are Then - part 4, but episode 278946, probably.

[mummy917]

For anyone who is still offering messages of hope, wisdom and general loveliness 🥰

I thought the exact same thing re counselling, that so many people are having a much tougher time than me. I felt it was almost self indulgent to do it and that really what I should do is just crack on. But I really don’t think that works. I’ve been seeing a therapist for over a year now and it’s been brilliant. I’m understanding patterns in my behaviour/responses and finding ways to interrupt those patterns. So while you look back, it also moves you forward. It’s also helped me face my feelings about things as you can only bottle things up for so long, there has to be outlet. I do think timing is important and it took me a while to get to a place that I was ready. Wishing you all the best xxx

keep in mind some of what goes on here is safe venting and that may be what you have wanted initially. Lots of us have different approaches and have shared thoughts with you.

When I went through my divorce, I leaned heavily on a support form (this was before I discovered MN) and that all I needed. I could sound off, get opinions, it was an anonymous safe space. Also, there was always someone online, so I never felt alone. It might sound strange that a group of (fabulous) strangers got me through one of the worst times of my life, but that's what worked for me. Counselling wasn't so well known back then.

There must be something I’m saying often that stands out to make so many women think I need counselling, so maybe I do.

I can't speak for anyone else but the reason I suggested it is that I think you don't have good boundaries where your ex is concerned (and you really need good ones when you have a pisstaker in your life). Someone upthread mentioned your urge to communicate with him which is part of it. But it's also all the emotional labour you are/were doing and you were often filtering everything through what he would say or think about it though I think you do this a bit less now. And also not separating out your feelings from your kids' feelings. I think the posters who say your 4 year old was probably way less bothered about him missing her first day of school than you were are probably correct.

I think not having strong boundaries is a default for most women because of female socialisation (including expectations from other women, there's an awful lot of that on mumsnet) and it's only really when you start working on your own boundaries that you start to notice boundaries or lack of them in people you know. Your ex has weak boundaries because he tries to make you responsible for loads of things that are his responsbility - one example being that time you went to sports day with him and he moaned that you left him on his own to talk to some people you knew and he didn't have anyone to talk to. And him fizzing about you being away for the night.

I'm not sure what NHS occ health offers counselling wise but some non NHS employee schemes are a bit scant - 6 x half hour sessions are common. You can't do anything much in a half hour session apart from speak very quickly. So probably best to try and find out what is on offer before joining a long waiting list for it. You likely won't need that many sessions to do a bit of work on boundaries but you may want longer term counselling to deal with the emotional fallout of your marriage ending and the life changes it has brought about.

I'm sorry you got hit at work, that's completely unacceptable. I hope it doesn't hurt too much and fades soon.

You don't miss the real him, who he is now.

But you do miss the wonderful man you married and hoped to spend a life with.
Whether that man ever existed you will never know: it could have been the real him back then but he changed, or it could be that he never was that person and it was all an act from the beginning. Or a bit of both.
It doesn't matter either way. That wonderful man is gone for good.

So it really is not surprising that on highly emotional occasions you still reach out to try and find that missing wonderful man, hoping he will re-appear. That is part of the process you are going through.

I think every divorced or divorcing woman should try counselling or some form of therapy (finances permitting), not just you. There is no down-side, try it and see. It may be extremely helpful, or it may not.
The standard advice is to try a couple of different counsellors if you don't click with the first one.

@mummy917

There must be something I’m saying often that stands out to make so many women think I need counselling, so maybe I do.

When you have some quiet time to yourself, go back and read all of your threads, and see how many times other posters have advised you against a specific course of action. These are usually about your own boundaries and attempts to get your Twat of an Ex to behave as you would like him to - and actually, as he would have done if he was a decent bloke.

You have been conditioned to behave like this for all of your marriage, even if you were happy in the earlier days.

Asking for counselling is a strong thing; it's not a weakness.

Counselling is only effective if the person wants to do it. OP, some people prefer to have counselling as the thing is happening and others find it better to have it once they are not in the thick of it. Firefighting as they say.

It also depends on other thing- I have therapy once a month or less often and I continue it because I like having an objective space where someone is paid to listen to me without judgement. I also have a partner and a handful of close friends to talk to as well but if I want an objective place to sound off, therapy is helpful. I’ve dipped in and out of it for about four years now.

It's so very hard to let him fail, knowing that he will also fail your children. Ultimately they will learn what he will do, (be late, palm off on MIL, whatever) & will simply know that he is a lazy half parent. They will probably love him in a way, & half accept his failures as it's "just the way he is". the loyalty will give you the rage !

I am the one who always drove the bus in my (unhappy) marriage. I am now H's carer, lots of people tell me I should get therapy, I just don't know if I can let down the barriers, & actually fear I might feel worse. Ultimately nothing will change.
I also don't have money to throw at it, any more than I have money to outsource the actual load of caring for H, which is clearly the only thing that would improve my life. But I agree counselling is only going to help if you want it

Thank you, I’ve just caught up on all your replies. I’ve been at work today and did a very unexpected, last minute 10 hour bank shift but the money will be nice!

I will definitely keep counselling through work in my mind. I am very much looking forward to spending the rest of the weekend in my pyjamas, resting and doing very little.

Something I found useful with therapy- and I think you need to know what you want going in- was exploring why I was in a particular situation.

So we didn’t particularly talk about specific incidents, so much as work out what my underlying beliefs were that had brought me to a place I felt trapped and unhappy.

I realised that while there were traumatic events in my past, far more important were the underlying beliefs which left me vulnerable to those situations.

Have you heard of the shark cage theory? I found it a useful analogy.

Therapy is something to think about. I didn’t feel unhappy or trapped in my marriage though. Even though I’m glad now that I am where I am, when we were together I was happy and content.

Even though I’m glad now that I am where I am, when we were together I was happy and content.

@mummy917

Therein might be a reason for therapy. You were in a really bad marriage and yet you thought yourself happy. Something to pick apart would be why you thought you were happy (ie put up with his shit) in such a bad situation. And yes yes I know we all say "But it wasn't always that way". Doesn't matter. You didn't see it or get out when it first turned bad.

It may not seem important now, but could be important if the time comes that you decide you are ready for a new relationship, be that 6 months or 6 years from now. You want to be sure you don't fall into the same trap again.

I know from experience how, even when we see that a prior relationship was abusive, we will still fall for the same kind of man. When I ended my first marriage I knew he was abusive and thought 'never again!'. The first serious relationship I had after him was with, wait for it, another abusive man. Looking back I can see my 'blind spots' but I certainly didn't see them then! I ended up going to therapy and when she asked me what I wanted to accomplish I wailed "I want to know why I pick such shit men and how do I stop?". Took me 18 months and a lot of hard work, brutal honesty, and emotional pain but I got there.

I agree therapy may be useful but sometimes it's better to let the dust settle a bit first. This is all so new. Obv is horses for courses, bit recognition of our negative patterns might be harder while you are still in that early stunned phase.

It took me far too long to realise, but I was trained up to be a people pleaser, to manage the emotions of the people around me, and to carry the responsibility for making things work.

So I found myself going to great lengths to please a man that barely noticed I was there and certainly didn’t go to great lengths to please me. He however wouldn’t have recognised that as he was totally the opposite. He went through certain routines that he associated with ‘being a good husband’, and never wondered whether I was happy or what we could do differently or whether he was a good husband.

And all his needs were met before he even formulated or noticed a need, because that’s what I was trained for.

Can we listen to the OP please, she doesn’t want to have therapy right now? And people keep going on about it.

@AcrossthePond55 me too 😬

Can I suggest something halfway between therapy and the Freedom Programme?

try this

[FWIW I say this as a veteran of the domestic abuse sector]

Own My Life is a fantastic course, I'd highly recommend it too.

Saw this and thought of your ex, OP!

Thank you for all your suggestions. And that last one has really made me chuckle 🤣

Me and my friends went out last night and I’m currently nursing a hangover. It was just what I needed.

I don’t think I’ve read anything that suggests you are in need of counselling or therapy @mummy917 , just keep contact with him to absolutely essential stuff about the kids and you are doing fine . Re the Christmas presents perhaps ask his mum to find out what he plans to buy and say to her that you can’t ask him yourself as he is just too rude to you now .

Glad to hear you had a good girly night out you deserve it. Try and keep contact with him to minimum it’s not your responsibility to manage him and the children he will fail but your children will get wise to him. Certainly don’t do things that make his life easier as you will be called controlling (which technically you will be trying to control how he parents) yes his parenting “style” is crap but it is his way so not sure you need counselling just good stlf control not to contact him.

Just to say I am going against the grain re mentioning Xmas presents. Purely because of what my ex did at our first Xmas apart. I messaged him a few days before Xmas to check arrangements and he said something about coming round to watch DD open her presents "from us". I said no, it wouldnt be possible and it would be nice for her to open his presents when she got there.

He went mad as he had assumed that I would pay for everything (again) and label it from both of us. It was my fault apparently that he now had no money and no time to get her anything. Money enough to go out and get pissed every night though....funny that.

I can see your point. Problem is though that no matter when it's raised if he wants to have a shit-fit over it he will. The only difference is that if @mummy917 mentions it ahead of time he will know that Xmas won't be a 'collaborative affair' and he'll have time enough time to prepare for 'his own' Xmas with the DC. If he decides to that is. Knowing TWATkins he'll probably simply say "Oh dear, Mummy won't invite Daddy for Xmas. I will miss you" with a sad face. Or some such bullshit.

But I have a feeling that if she doesn't mention it, he probably will at some point to see if he can 'horn in' on her time with the DC.

Oh of course he will have a shit fit, thats a given!

But as you say, at least if she mentions it now he can't say he didnt know, can't say that he hasnt the time or money for gifts (as my ex did) and will have no choice but to make his own arrangements. Although, I would probably say it via his mum if possible.

Its amazing that he is still refusing to see that this is what happens when you are separated and that he wanted this!

That might be worth @mummy917 saying to him when he kicks off the next time he expects wife work from her.

Personally I might mention to exMIL. Something vague about if she wanted ideas re presents you can help. after all TWAT has never participated in choosing presents, so its doubtful he will have a fucking clue, that, plus how he has no money apparently as he is refusing to reimburse you for xyz.
Anyway, its his problem now. Toodleoo.