August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

@fortyfourbooks this!

I am wondering if they project their weakness onto others unconsciously. I say this because dm, and sibling love drama; they thrive on it. They seem to hate when people's lives are going well. Dm would message me a, "how are you feeling, are you feeling any better?" I remind dm I was never unwell, she must have me mixed up with somebody else. She struggled to accept I was happy, strong and doing well, and not some little delicate flower that fitted the narrative she painted.

On the subject of whether they know they’re doing it or are doing it on purpose… my MiL will openly admit really horrible things she has deliberately done, and will happily tell you that she has lied about her true intentions to the people she has deliberately hurt. She has admitted to me personally that she has taken a 6 year old really far out in the sea on a floaty and told them she would let them go and float away if they didn’t stop a behaviour that was no more than an annoyance to her, she has admitted to turning the cold tap on when her DP is in the shower deliberately to scold him after arguments (plural, like this is something she does regularly) and then tells him she didn’t realise and that she was putting the kettle on to make him a cup of tea to make amends after their argument - the list goes on. But she only says these things when she thinks you will agree with her/won’t judge her. If you raised these things as challenges of her character she would say “I was joking” or “I never said that” or some other thing to deny or hide behind.

I honestly don’t really know what makes them the way they are. It doesn’t really make sense. I think they were raised by people who were broken and never showed them proper love. Which makes me feel sorry for them in a way, but I know others (like my DH) who were raised without being properly loved and they haven’t turned into selfish narcissists, so there is something personal going on as well. At the end of the day, I don’t know how important it is to figure them out. If you know they don’t care about you and never will, then all you need to know is GOSO and don’t look back.

What a cruel abusive woman your MIL is, that poor child must have been petrified. If she is admitting that, goodness know what else she is doing/has done that she isn't telling anyone. It is sickening.
I know with dm, she had an abusive df and never broke the chain, she ended up mirroring the very behaviour she dispised because she can't self reflect or take accountability. My Aunt grew up in that exact same home but I think was more similar to her dm, and isn't anything like dm.

That is sick. Most of us have a line that we don’t cross because we don’t want to be cruel. I don’t want my children to think that I’m cruel. I don’t want to get my way if that means I have to act in a really cruel way. It’s something I try to teach my ND children. You can’t get something you want by all means because we don’t want to hurt someone else to get our own way. It’s hard with the difference in empathy and understanding. I think that’s what is missing, the understanding that getting my own way via any means possible is not a win if the other person has been hurt.

Also I have come to understanding that fulfilling your own needs and simply forgetting others whilst you do this, that you are neglecting others and that is also not a win.

The weirdest thing about MiL in that respect is that her own mum seemed to be “ok” especially by generational standards. She wasn’t what anyone would call abusive from what I can work out. A bit detached and self absorbed maybe. She certainly never seemed to want to hurt anyone. She didn’t know her dad so I wonder if it’s genetic? We wouldn’t know because we don’t know anything about him.

I suppose if it was genetic that could explain your mum and aunt? One got mums genes and one got dad’s genes like it was just the luck of the draw.

Yes, I do know of worse things she has done but they are the things she claims not to remember (she knows she would be judged for those). I don’t know for a fact, but wouldn’t be surprised if she tells her DP she “forgot” every time she deliberately burns him in the shower.

Maybe they have a belief that we need to punish those that we have perceived hurt from. I know with my ND kids that they have a very strong sense of justice and they are so black and white and struggle with the idea of accidents. My older daughter whose almost 11 she has developed beyond punishing someone who has hurt her. My almost 4 year old will still absolutely hurt someone who she perceives hurt from. If you accidentally bump her she will bump, hit, kick you back. But as with my eldest we keep repeating we don’t do this and hopefully she will also stop. If your thinking is altered and just immature and no one is around to parent you and guide you toward right/wrong then it must be hard to develop healthy. In a way they’ve probably had to parent themselves and you need a healthy parent to guide a child.

Wow, @Eeriefairy, that is criminal. Unbelievable (I do believe you, but just wow), to even admit it to you and sounds like bragging about it.

@Mywhitedress I don’t remember what started the conversation about her friend’s child, but it was sort of like she was giving me advice. “This is something you can do to tame annoying children” type thing. Maybe I had been complaining about my niece? I don’t actually remember. She admitted burning her DP in the shower because my DH was complaining about the water going hot and cold while he was in the shower, and my BiL joked that I might have been turning the taps on and off while he was in there. She lit up and said “Oh do you do that too?!” And proceeded with the rest of the story as if she had discovered some quirk we both shared. Another time she expounded the benefits of passive aggression (again, as advice) because you can hurt people and “they can’t really do anything about it”. This is why I think she was able to be diagnosed - because at least some of the time she doesn’t seem to understand what other people will think of her behaviour. Other times she knows it will be judged and then she’ll lie/make excuses. There are also lots of extreme examples that all the DC were in agreement on. I think another person I know definitely is NPD but I don’t think she would be stupid enough to admit to anything like that to a professional at least.

Also, my sister’s abusive ex was extremely passive aggressive and denied that any of it was on purpose - until he was ready to leave. Then he told her everything he had done that he had pretended was by accident or he had been trying to help or trying to be caring had all been deliberately to hurt her and to try and get her to leave him. So, it’s my belief that these people are probably all well aware of what they’re doing.

@bingoshoes @fortyfourbooks Your explanations really make a lot of sense of how my Mum and GB2 behave. I've always thought there were a lot of double standards/inconsistencies but convincing themselves they are superior in order to avoid feeling insecure fits. I think what is happening now is part of this. I think they both initially felt uncomfortable about Mum needing help with day to day living, as it meant that friends and family of a similar age that they had always secretly looked down on would be noticeably 'better'. So Mum would have 'lost'. To manage this, they have decided that Mum can't possibly need external help, it should all be done by family- showing that actually we are a 'better' family than those who would use carers/residential care, so we 'win'.
I have threatened this outcome by not just taking on the carer role myself but GB2 has set this up as a 'game' a bit like bingoshoes described with her Dad. When no one else is around to see he acts aggressively, accuses me of all sorts of things (mainly things he's actually quite obviously guilty of) and tries to apply emptional blackmail. If I give in and take on more than I want to (which has happened sometimes before, in a crisis) he is clever and right, I am stupid and admitting I am in the wrong= he wins. If I don't give in, he will get more aggressive until I walk away/put the phone down. He will tell Mum and anyone else who will listen that I have stormed off for no reason. He is wonderful and clever, I am unreasonable and over dramatic= he wins. If I refuse to even get in to the discussion the same applies.

@Eeriefairy GB1, who I am convinced had NPD (whereas I think GB2 'just' has narcissistic tendencies), usually claimed that anything he did that hurt others was either an unfortunate mistake, someone else's fault, a perfectly normal and reasonable response to other's behaviour or sometimes even done for very honourable reasons that actually made him the hero. However, when he really wanted to hurt someone he sometimes made a point of telling them details of awful things he'd done and got away with and that he'd done it intentionally to hurt them. I think GB1 knew exactly what he was doing and the hurt it would cause, but enjoyed it and didn't really think of other people as having any worth other than to give him what he wanted. I think GB2 has convinced himself that he actually is always in the right

The unibomber was autistic. You and I have various characteristics of that. That does not make us lack empathy or murder people. I think personalities and temperaments as well as diagnosed illnesses can lead to things.

I might be estranged from my family and my parents were rubbish as parents but they are ok people by and large. Just not towards me anymore.

Compared to them my violent monster of an ex was a psychopath. I’ve read a few books on it and did study a few psychology courses. Any feeling that I or anyone would deem normal he did not have in the slightest. As he abused me it was like something changed in his face/eyes I can’t explain it. completely cold.

I don’t think they are the same at all. I have lived with a psychopath for many years. Money and status was not linked at all.

Exactly the psychopath I lived with it was all about control.

From what I understand he went on to develop schizophrenia. It does kind of humanise these types of people. Whereas psychopaths are born narcs were once just a person who had they had good parenting probably wouldn’t have turned out like this. Which makes me feel like staying away is better for our children because we need to be as healthy as possible and narcs don’t create healthy people. They too selfish to care about how others experience them.

I don’t think every narcissist or every psychopath is obsessed with money and status, I was responding to Must asking why her in-laws cared about money and status and not about personal connections with their family. So my answer was: because they don’t care about family. I’m sure people with all types of disorder are as individual as people without disorders.

@formalwellies I think you’re right that they are protecting their perception of themselves. Your GB1 sounds like a real piece of work as well. I hope all has remained quiet for you so far this weekend.

They do care about family very much, the image of it, controlling it, using it, hiding amongst it. My MIL isn’t money oriented (she has a lot though but doesn’t show it off, doesn’t actually give any away or buy present etc). My BIL on the other hand it’s all he cares about. My MIL is much better at marketing herself, she has social skills so gets her positioning from status of people. My BIL has no social skills so can’t do this, he gets his positioning from having more then everyone else. Same underlying cause I suppose, making themselves feel good, still selfish, image is still all they both care about.

When I first met MIL I was very confused about the MIL. She actively promotes not showing off, not needing it have much. But on the next breath will encourage her son to work all hours of the day, leave his family at home to earn more and more. I think I asked why at one point and the dad said, it’s because he is proud of his family so wants to show this off. I can’t link earning lots and showing off with being proud of my kids and family?

@MustIgo Yes it’s that old “family” thing where it’s more to do with the appearance of the family unit, rather than any of the individuals being healthy or happy or connected. My MiL once bought some generic slogan art to put on the wall that said “family”. We all laughed out loud when we saw it and wondered whose benefit it was supposed to be for. It was in her holiday home which she rented out to friends and family so the idea others would see it must have been top of the list. I think you’ll never be able to reconcile what these people say with what they do!

@Eeriefairyshe's a sadist. Disguising it reasonably well, but the delight in causing pain and fear is there, isn't it?

My father had a collection of deeply unpleasant friends and I suspect he was able to talk to them about some of his more gross and spiteful behaviour, because they would have supported it, due to having some gross predilictions of their own. Like attracts like.

@Eeriefairy Thank you. Yes, GB1 was awful- the only person I have every known where I truly think he was capable of doing absolutely anything to make himself feel powerful. He died years ago which has given him an almost saint-like status in my FOO. GB2 even named his child in honour of him, and his death (which was in my mind rather predictable after decades of alcoholism and regularly going on 'benders' that lasted for days) is talked about as a terrible, tragic entirely unpreventable one off sudden health problem that could have happened to anyone. I entirely understand my parents wanting to think positively about his life but it means that they have all doubled down on rewriting history and the narrative that I went NC with him simply to be difficult, and to seek attention when I should have been supporting him. It has no real bearing on the current situation, other than the fact that it makes it easier for GB2 to claim that I am once again being unreasonable, and to claim that I somehow owe it to him and Mum to do more and more to make up for my past selfishness.

Anyway, so far there has been no word from them this weekend. Which means either Mum has not passed on the message that I won't be sorting out their house repairs (quite possible, as she has told me in the past that she has to be careful when she tell him things she thinks will 'upset' him) or that GB2 is waiting until DH is not around before he tries to 'deal with' me.

Doesn't this suggest that your mother has had to develop her own strategy for surviving your brother?

Interesting that the golden child has to be carefully managed because of their reactions to news they might not want to hear.

What's awful is that you have been sacrificed as part of it.

@formalwellies it must be extremely difficult to listen to praise for the person who abused you. Especially from people that should care about you just as much as they care about him. I just can’t imagine it. I never thought I could be angry with my eldest DD, but when she hurt her younger sister I suddenly realised I could be! I always make sure I tell them both to be kind to each other and try to listen to their squabbles so I can guide them both instead of letting the more dominant personality reign. I can’t imagine overlooking that one of them was hurting the other. The other woman I believe has NPD is like this with her sons - the older one bullies the younger one and she just turns a blind eye. She is also the type to buy presents for both children on each other’s birthday but she will buy the older son better more expensive presents on the younger son’s birthday.

@bingoshoes that’s horrible and unfortunately not massively surprising. I think my MiL mostly plays the victim to her friends who are all people who have a history of abusive relationships so they are perfect for her to mimic and also the type to make lots of excuses for her and sympathise as they really have been where she claims to have been. She can also feel superior to them and put them down subtly and it doesn’t flag anything to them.

@bingoshoess re developing a strategy for surviving my brother. This is exactly what I believed when I was younger. That DM could see that the behaviour of GB1/GB2 was wrong and trying to find ways to appease them/bail them out was simply her trying her best in an awful situation. For a long time I felt that Mum was as much a victim of GB1/GB2 as I was and I used to go to great lengths, and put up with mistreatment myself, to try to help make things a bit better for her (even if that meant doing things for GB1/GB2 so she didn't 'have' to). I started to change my mind when DC1 was born and I didn't want GB1 anywhere near, to protect my child. Mum could have acknowledged that GB1 was a problem and understood, even if she didn't like it. Instead she tried to force me to have him staying with me, denied that he had ever done anything even slightly unpleasant to me and still to this day treats me as though I was entirely in the wrong for denying GB1 a relationship with me and my children. I'm afraid that what is happening now is the almost inevitable conclusion to the way that GB2 has been encouraged to see himself as superior and that he has a right to be able to make decisions and have 'someone' else see them through and make sure he's not inconvenienced. The 'someone' was previously usually our parents but since that's not been possible he and Mum seem to have genuinely believed it would be me. The same person that for decades they have been calling a selfish, disloyal liar etc.
I do feel sorry for Mum, and I can see that she is in an impossible situation. She believes that GB2 is being the lovely son that she always knew he was so she doesn't want to say or do anything that would displease him. He has presented her with only 2 possible options- 1) I do everything as he says so that we can look after her for the rest of her life with no need for 'outsiders' or residential care; or 2) I do not care and expect him to do everything, so I am selfish, uncaring and need to be pushed out or made to see sense. Unfortunately GB2 is not willing to consider option 3) where Mum has a proper care plan with paid carers or residential care so that both of us can see her, help make sure things are managed well for her but have time and energy for our own lives too. Mum is no longer really able to think things through fully, but based on the way she dealt with things in the past I suspect we'd be in exactly the same position if her health problems were purely physical.

Do you think the narcissistic parent in these circumstances has a different kind of narcissism and they have created a worse version. The covert ones are yuk but the overt ones they produce are even less appealing. In my partner’s family the mum is grim but polished on the outside, the brother is not either of these things. He’s a big head and people don’t like him. People like the mum until you get close. Tbh it’s the brothers behaviour that for me gives away the covert mother. She has not helped him at all, pushes his selfish behaviour and enables it terribly. She tells him to work, she tells him not to bother with other family and not get bogged down with friends. He seems to be all that she is hiding deep down. Like @formalwellies said the difference between what they say and reality is contradictory. What her son is is in total contradiction to what she advertises herself to be.