August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

@OneBigDisappointment (one big diamond! Sorry I just hate addressing you as one big disappointment!) thank you for sharing and for your insights - and you never have to apologise for ranting. Everybody here needs to get it out of their system. My mum I think is similar in some ways to yours (explicitly saying she would not be doing any babysitting or childcare for years before and after my sister and I had our DC, then acting like we are keeping the DC from her and it isn’t fair she never gets asked to babysit) but much less openly hostile. So, maybe you’re right that it won’t end up going the same direction in that way. There hasn’t been any outward resistance to my pulling back at all. My dad is the one that would say something, if he felt I was doing something “wrong”, my mum would just make little comments (and including to my DDs) so that’s what I get stressed about - not knowing what’s coming.

@MustIgo yes, from everything I have read basically narcissism is a specific presentation of what used to be called a psychopath. They don’t care about people and they don’t connect with people, so they see material success and money and status as more important. But in the ones I know, there is an obvious insecurity and a desire to be “popular” or “respected” that they are too disconnected to actually be able to achieve. They try to make themselves “look” popular, but they know they aren’t and that frustrates them I think. Most psychopaths will never kill anyone, but obviously there are some that do - and that can be because they’re bitter and want to punish people for never truly accepting them or because they want to control people in the most extreme ways. I think they’re individuals like anyone else, but with these traits that unite them all.

Narcissism is not just a specific presentation of a psychopath. Every psychopath exhibits prominent narcissistic traits but most narcissists are not psychopaths.

The narcissist is driven by ego protection and a need for admiration. The psychopath is driven by control, stimulation and personal gain. These people are largely indifferent to social approval or humiliation.

NPD is in the DSm-5 whereas purchases is not a standalone DSM diagnosis.

Psychopathy nor purchases.

When my DH and family were told that MiL has NPD they explained it as: we no longer use the term psychopath, we use the term “anti social personality disorder” and that “narcissistic personality disorder” is a type of “antisocial personality disorder”. It was an older therapist that had possibly been used to using the term psychopath before new terminology came in. But they said it was useful to understand that these are traits that we would tend to associate with a psychopath - specifically lacking empathy and seeing people as objects rather than equal human beings. Getting their “supply” - not having a loving relationship.

I have heard people say that Ted Bundy was a narcissist, and would probably be diagnosed with NPD today, but they’re not usually murderers. I haven’t read the diagnostic textbooks myself, just sharing what we were told to put the diagnosis into context for the family and help them understand. FWIW, NC was recommended for them all, but none of them did so immediately. And some still haven’t (my DH is LC and the GC is enmeshed).

eta: sorry, I am confusing narcissism with NPD. I haven’t investigated all the ins and outs of diagnostic criteria. MiL is NPD. BiL told us his therapist “thinks he is a narcissist”, which seeing as he is exactly the same as MiL I assumed the two things were the same but it seems I am confusing two different terms.

I thought that a narc is driven by control and personal gain…the gain of a believed narrative and the control of people to believe the narrative?

The only difference I can think of is that psychopaths don’t care what other people think of them whereas narcs do. The guy in this film had these beliefs but they weren’t followed by anyone or by followers. That must be the difference. The narcs inflated self comes from them putting in a lot of work and effort into getting followers and enablers. Probably explains why trump is a narc and not a psychopath.

My DM definitely ticks all the boxes for the narcissistic personality criteria, and it feels like my sibling is a total crossover displaying same traits and behaviours from both. It became exhausting to navigate, especially when trying to set boundaries or get any kind of accountability with either. I had to protect my peace. How do you mpve forward with people who cannot take any accountability, have such high expectations? A relationship with these types means doing everything they want on their terms or face hostility. Life is too short for that.

"How do you move forward with people who cannot take any accountability, have such high expectations? A relationship with these types means doing everything they want on their terms or face hostility. Life is too short for that".

Indeed you cannot move forward with them. You need then to adopt a GOSO approach which is get out and stay out. You need radiators in your life, not drains.

That is such a good point about narcs caring what people think and putting so much effort into building up enablers. It really explains why they burn through people so fast, yet it is always everyone else's fault.

I think they genuinely convince themselves that everyone else is driving them away, when in reality, it is the exact other way around, they are the ones driving people away from their orbit.

Because my DM demands perfection, and complete compliance, she constantly tests boundaries. The moment anyone tries to set a healthy boundary, hold her accountable, or just pull back to protect their own energy, she experiences it as a massive betrayal. Instead of reflecting on why people are distancing themselves, her brain flips the narrative completely so she can play the victim, while those her are actually just escaping constant hostility, unreasonable demands, and emotional exhaustion.

Yes, absolutely, you need people who build you up, not drag you down. GOSO, haven't heard of that before, I like it!
It is the only way to protect your peace when accountability is completely impossible I am finding. They're always the ones sweeping things under rugs and wanting to "move forward" when expected to own their actions,. The pain of others means nothing, yet anybody else is hauled over the coals when they feel wronged in some way, or when people are not living up to their unrealistic expectations. It drains you.

The only way I understand this is by a friends behaviour. She can make friends and supporters so easily, like it’s breathing to her. She is super magnetic, charming, helpful to an extreme….but like you say she burns through people, really good people. They don’t tend to leave her she just is constantly in momentum. Seeking, getting, seeking getting ,that those at the older end get dropped off. Those are the people she actually needs but she can’t stop. I felt like we had a connection, we probably did but it isn’t what drives her. She can form connections with people quickly and intensely but she needs to do this daily. I and many have suggested therapy because her behaviour gets her into messes but she won’t go. So sadly what we once had in a friendship has been replaced 3 times over I the past 4 months. I was a long line of new friends and they will continue until she runs out then will need to move like she has 3 times already in her life.

Is it perfection they seek or is it the intensity and the boost of connections that they can’t get from their kids.

Absolutely - get out stay out. They won’t change. They won’t wake up one day and suddenly care. My DH can’t let go because he loves his mum, even though he knows she doesn’t love him. It’s difficult. I think there is still a part of him that thinks one day she’ll show him somehow that she cares - he gets off the phone and relays things she has said that make it clear she has selfish reasons for any interest she has seemed to show in him and I don’t really know what to say because he’s been shown over and over already.

That’s so sad for him. What a belief to have to integrate….your own mum can’t love you. I think love gets in the way because she is mentally unwell so is too disordered to love. Does he understand she isn’t capable of love because she is disordered? That would take away any worry that he wasn’t lovable.

I am sorry about your friend, they seem to use and discard people so easily. I don't think I'll ever understand it, no matter how I try.

DM has gone through scores of friends throughout her life. At first, she would sing their praises which felt OTT and intense for a brand new friendship. Then, a bit of time later, they'd just be gone with no mention. When I'd ask about them, barely anything would be said, almost like she barely knew them at all after previously being what seemed like good, close friends.
She used to be like a social hub, making friends easily, she’d have loads of birthday cards lined up, which over the years dwindled down to a few. It was noticeable. They can't all be wrong, yet in her eyes, she was always the victim. They didn't get her a good enough gift, or they wanted to go to a restaurant for their birthday that she didn't like, just forever moving goalposts. One she mentioned most recently was posting loads of meals and nights out all dressed up on Facebook and "showing off" apparently. There was so much jealousy and bitterness instead of being happy for her.
Even now, with her WhatsApp chat locked, I am taking a deep breath checking it once a day and finding nothing, feeling relief. Her last message told me that I would have to contact her and she "won't take no for an answer." It feels like she's just waiting for me to give in to her demands. I fully expect she'll reappear around Christmas or start demanding access to dcs, and I suspect she'll blame me entirely when she does, and her messages may be nasty. I'm dreading it.

I am an old poster, checking in! Things are fairly quiet here, as contact with my mother seems to have reduced back to minimum. I've seen some others have talked about finding LC/NC emotionally really hard - I was estranged from my father from late teens and didn't find that difficult at all (he was just a horrible person. I suspect NPD so the behaviour really was extreme and I knew from the age of about 12 that I was going to cut contact with him at the first opportunity).

With my mother it's more complicated as the behaviour is bad but not that bad. She can't resist an opportunity to tell me I'm a bad person or that she's better than me. I avoid her. I don't phone, I barely text, we barely see each other. She's never asked me why. No interest in my kids. I feel this is my only way through but it does leave a massive gaping hole, because there's no other family to speak of. I have the need of a mother, just not the mother I had (I think because she needs to parentify me and I can't do it any more). I've long suspected my father was a grandiose narcissist. I also suspect now that my mother is to some degree a covert narcissist, which is why she stayed with him for decades even though he was just awful.

It's not something people can really understand if their parents aren't narcs, even if they've dealing with narcissism in other people, what it is like to be trained as a narcissist's support human from birth.

You're missing the point - it's not about control of th narrative, not really. Everything they do is a coping mechanism. It's about protecting themselves from the agony of cripplingly low self esteem. The sort of self esteem that is so poor that they would have a catastrophic mental breakdown if they had to face it. So they are constantly in competition with others, creating competition where none exists, constantly putting others down, manipulating others into agreeing with them, finding people to bully, playing the victim (because this gives them status). They need to constantly prove to themselves that they're not just as good as other people, they're actually superior, to drown out the little voice in their head that keeps telling them they're shit.

Where it's difficult for those of us who actually have narcissistic parents is that their view of the world is the one we are exposed to as children when we don't have enough life experience to know any better. We are their prisoners. We have to somehow get our basic needs met so we develop behaviours and survival strategies that often involve appeasing them or accepting bullying without complaint. We don't know this isn't normal because it's our normal.

We then have to build ourselves from scratch as

adults, unpick these behaviours, and allow ourselves to accept our parents as they really are, which can be terrifying and painful. It's a uniquely difficult situation to be in.

To understand the narcissism you have to ask what the control is for. Why they need to cling to a particular narrative, blame everyone else, be treated as special, love bomb and then destroy. It is all about proving they are better than other, because they can't cope with the alternativs,

What is the alternative….everyone is equally special and important and they are just like the rest of us!

But most of us aren't special. We're ordinary and in the grand scheme of things, not important at all.

Again, this misses the point. A person with narcissism can only cope with themselves by barricading the door against the low self esteem, and they do this by constantly seeking proof that they are better than other people. Accepting that they're just the same as other people isn't possible. It's not a strong enough defence against the low self esteem.

That dynamic reminds me of what I went through with mine. I genuinely thought I loved her, I now think I just loved the version of her she would never be.
I would cling on to any little thing she did, or said that seemed nice, so she mustn't be that bad. However her visits and phonecalls, left me feeling negatively about myself, comments she made, or looks she gave. I wonder if it is perhaps similar for your dh.

I'm still unsure if there is a streak of dm I do love, if this streak is real or fake. It is all really difficult to unpick tbh, as it takes a huge amount to destroy a child's love for a mother. All I know is I feel happier and healthier since I made the decision. I think I am sad about giving up in the end realising she would never love me no matter what I did. I'm not convinced she has ever loved anybody, not unconditionally.
I hope things improve for your dh.

Hi @bingoshoes I always wonder do they do this consciously or unconsciously? Are narcissists aware of what they're doing, or do they truly feel it everybody else at fault? I agree with extreme insecurity being the cause of the ego.

The manipulation is conscious, as in they know what to say and do to make you do what makes them feel good. I don’t think they are aware that they are manipulating because of insecurity. That would be admitting that they are ‘weak’ which is what they are desperately trying to cover up by all the shenanigans and putting others down.

My understanding of it from a psych perspective (and from my experience of my father) is that they genuinely believe, in the moment, that they really are the victim and aren't responsible for their actions. That said, I also think that there is some degree of awareness of the fact that other people will judge their behaviour and they may face consequences for it that they don't want. They understand image preservation, so to speak. So for example my mother says shocking things to me if she can get me on my own. She doesn't say them if my husband is in the room. That to me says some degree of self awareness, however limited. I don't think they are able to be completely honest with themselves. With my father, after my parents marriage broke down and the stories about his behaviour started coming out, had a mental breakdown. He couldn't face what he had done. He was in hindsight incredibly fragile and I suspect always had been, propping himself up with grand of being a creative genius and blaming everyone else for the fact that there was no real world evidence of it.

I definitely saw this with my father. He would gaslight and lie and cheat. He knew he was doing it. But the game he was playing was a form of evidence gathering. If you believe the lie, you're stupid and he's clever. He wins. If he can tell you don't believe the lie but he can make you pretend you do, you're stupid and he's clever and he wins. If you call him out on the lie, he would explode with rage until you were in tears, showing you were weak and disrespectful and he wins. Sometimes he might just explode with rage anyway, and you'd apologise for upsetting him just to make it stop, so he wins.

But he couldn't be open with himself about why he was playing this game.

Me and DH have seen with both his sister and my mum that as soon as we were wise to them, got stronger and stopped feeling guilty for saying no to their demands or being hurt by their comments, they stopped trying and being nasty. When we mention anything positive about our life or ourselves, or we do say no to things they want, they now just fall still and ignore what we said. You can see or hear the cogs turning, they are not happy, but they know we will walk out or hang up when they say what they would like to say. So they change the subject when they have found their words again and pretend we never said anything. It is quite telling, and still really frustrating and hurtful, but at least we are lucky that for us the LC works. It has stopped their worst behaviour.