August 2026 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have started a new thread as the other one is now full.

I don’t think strangers that are children can go into the stranger danger category of people. how bizarre.

When she starts her next school there will be lots of new kids that are strangers but some might be really nice and be one friends.

I think they must be in a perpetual state of paranoia. My ex believes that everyone has done over an exceptional guy…but the reality is they just reacted to behaviour he can’t acknowledge. He hates me because I left and then got my house back. He hates his ex because he put her in hospital so she left. Everyone I guess is a potential threat when you aren’t aware you are actually the problem. Which is something I teach our daughter, if you going to be unkind or not consider your friends then you are the problem not them.

I wanted to update that I have had the most weird and unexpected reaction since deciding I am now NC with dm. I haven't shed a tear, and have felt a strong sense of euphoria, and feel more confident in my own skin, accepting of who I am, without niggling self doubt knorring away in the background. I haven't had a single regret.

I am actually looking forward to the holidays without any expectations, or passive aggressive dressed up in a smile comments; it is like I can finally breath. I no longer have to feel dread when I see a message come through, be guilt dripped, pathologised, or have my life fed back to golden child. It is freeing! Even the gifts she has bought me, ornaments etc I look and smile and don't have the conflicted feelings about them I used to. It is like I appreciate the item for what it is. I know there was a streak in her that was kind, but the toxicity overrode it, and even the kind part I question.

I grieve my df who died before his time acouple of years ago (they were divorced over 2 decades). His love was unconditional, and he was a decent and lovely man who should have gotten to see his grandchildren grow up. Dm however, I am not grieving the NC, I think how can you when there is no love to grieve for. I think piece my piece in small ways I have mourned the version of her I deserved over my whole life, so now there is nothing left.

I feel more upbeat with dcs too, as due to dm's worsened behaviours lately I hadn't been myself. When I picked one of my dc's up from school earlier in the week, they said, "Mum you look different why is that, I like it."

Has anybody felt this way?
I do worry about the fall out reaction, any flying monkeys, but it isn't as bad as staying in touch, nowhere near.

wellies the realisation of it is so bizarre isn't it. I genuinely always believed my family were close too. I thought we'd be close forever and always be there for each other, part of each others lives. The slow dawning realisation that there's not one but two narcs in the midst and that actually many of us don't really get on, never have and aren't there in any meaningful capacity, has been very odd to adjust to. Watching it all shatter as I pulled back has been quite alarming in a way, as everyone suffers the effects of an upset Narc1 then followed by an upset Narc2, and does whatever they need to, to survive. There's been so much poisonous behaviour that has damaged all relationships, completely needlessly. Looking back with hindsight and seeing, as you have, that it doesn't matter because there never really was much of a relationship anyway.

I wonder how the people pleasing training has affected those relationship dynamics. It didn't used to bother me if people only contacted me when they wanted something, because we're family so what does it matter, we're meant to be there for each other. That's how I saw it. But it isn't being there, is it, if you're only ever being used as a resource. I used to think it's nice to be needed. Maybe it's to do with what must said about love being replaced with, or linked to, praise. You get praise if you do helpful things, so maybe it somehow feels like love and connection when really it's just being used? Something for me to think on, anyway. You had the patience of a saint during that conversation with your mother wellies!

I'm really sorry about what happened with your cousin eagle.

It's the isolation of domestic abusers, must. They want their victims isolated so they don't figure out, from witnessing normality, that their situation with the abuser isn't normal and so they have no moral/emotional support which might give them the strength to walk away from the abuser. I don't think it's that he doesn't understand, I believe he knows full well what he's doing. He's deliberately isolating her from her peers so all she has is him (when she's with him) and making her too afraid to leave him, the same way a spouse often doesn't leave their abusive partner because they have been convinced that they won't survive in the world on their own.

@OneBigDisappointment that is wonderful news. I did actually feel something a little similar when I decided to go LC (and have heard people say similar things about going NC). Realising my parents are actually unhealthy, dysfunctional and neglectful suddenly made me feel the weight of all the blame I’d put on myself for all the difficulties between us suddenly fall away. I felt hope for the future for the first time in years.

I also wouldn’t be too sure about the kind streak - it’s one of the traits of abusers isn’t it - they can’t be abusive every moment or you’d tell them to do one, they have to be nice occasionally to convince you it’s your problem.

@OneBigDisappointment I felt a huge sense of relief when I made the decision to minimise contact with DM/GB2. It was like a weight lifted off my shoulders just by having made that decision. I think a big thing was not feeling like I was just waiting for the next demand/crisis/nasty comment and not knowing how I should react or what plans I'd have to abandon etc to deal with it. I am still getting the calls/demands but I know exactly how I will respond and I won't feel I have to drop everything to go running to deal with a so called crisis. I am anticipating a strong reaction from GB2 once he finally realises something has changed, but I feel much stronger and able to deal with that because I know what I am doing and there is no way he can force me to change my mind. There are moments of guilt, and a feeling of unfairness that people around them will be convinced I am the bad person but this is nothing compared to the resentment I had been feeling about keeping on sacrificing myself and my own family's needs.

@MustIgo Your ex sounds a lot like my brothers. From what I've seen, their logic seems to be that they are superior to everyone else and always completely right so if anyone disagrees they are definitely wrong. If anything goes wrong for them it can't be their fault, so there must be someone else to blame. They also feel they must always be in control, so they hate it if people close to them mix with people who might disagree with them. This could be the real reason your ex is wary of your DD making friends- he knows that as she gets older her friends will have more influence over her. Whereas a decent parent wants to encourage friendships and teach their child how to have healthy relationships, these people want to make sure their child only mixes with people who he can control.

So wipe out the opposition before they even develop…..that’s real bad! I guess it keeps their hands from getting dirty wiping out those that are already there. It kind of shows that they know what they are doing, they know their behaviour could be seen as something wrong, otherwise they wouldn’t worry. I wouldn’t worry about her having friends. I love my kids but I don’t want them up my butt their whole life, friends can take help with that! 😂

@MustIgo I think that's basically it. I've never got my head around whether at some level they actually realise what they are doing is wrong, or just think that 'stupid people' (ie most people) will think they are in the wrong and challenge them even though they 'know' they are completely right. The impact on everyone else is the same though. I think to some extent my DM was the same- not as overt but she certainly tried to encourage us to see that there was just one 'right' opinion on every matter (= hers/'ours') and that anyone who didn't strongly agree was bad. I think it became a bit of a cycle- her insistence that GB1/GB2 were always the cleverest and always in the right etc (even when clearly in the wrong) helped keep them co-dependent and they in turn have expected everyone else around them to be under their control. Any friends/partners who haven't allowed them to be in control have quickly either left or been pushed out- always with stories of what awful people they were. As an example, GB2's ex was a single parent, having been a teenage mum. From the way he spoke about her it's clear he thought he, and our family, were superior to her and he expected her to be only too keen to let him move in with her and 'save' her. The problem was that she had worked very hard for years to buy a home for herself and her children, whereas he was in his 40s, living with his parents and not working whilst he 'considered they right career'. When she told him he couldn't move in unless he was able to properly contribute he called her a gold digger etc.

I wondered why my ex’s mum never held
him accountable for his actions. I know my exs father was abusive and I wonder if this meant she felt sorry for her son so just enabled him. She was always very dependent on her son, it was a weird relationship. Mothers should hold their kids accountable but I guess that’s the issue with when a parent over identifies. The kid can’t be wrong because they are an extension of someone who is perfect.

Thank you @Eeriefairy

I tried to grey rock and have even lower contact with dm for a few months, but it made her worse. It served as ammunition I think, feeding into estranged db and her narrative of this daughter/sister keeping everybody away. I apparently in her words "left her out in the cold."
She never offered to babysit, wasn't interested or there when I needed support; she was out with her bf, that is totally fine and her absolute right of course. But then she splits from said bf years later and loses a large social circle (they all sided with him) and suddenly starts to become demanding in regards to my dcs and manipulative, planning things like suggesting dropping them off at hers. She was planning on having estranged golden child who doesn't know them coincidentally "drop in", it was getting too much; they are in school 9 and 7 and she was acting like her little plan was a favour. Thankfully dh, and I didn't take the bait and realised what she was up to.

She had previously told all of the family that I wouldn't allow her to babysit. Apparently I enjoyed keeping her away while I was heavily pregnant with a toddler, no help, undiagnosed nosed health condition, no sleep and mastitis, fun times, but no I hadn't wanted any help! When my baby was in scbu, she didn't visit, and couldn't remember dc was even in SCBU. She then went on to tell me how my cousin's wife sailed through her births, no issues because she was so lovely and healthy through her pregnancies. I replied with well i was healthy through mine. I could go on, that is just the tip of thr iceberg. Honestly I could write a book.

I hope LC works out for you better than it did for me, and sorry for that information dump!

@OneBigDisappointment I think, as you found, that LC can be very difficult to maintain. I'm trying it now, but I don't think Mum and GB2 have realised that there's actually been a change and it's not just that I have been a bit busy. Unfortunately I think the penny is about to drop as there is some repair work needed on Mum's house and (under GB2s instructions) DM has told me I have to sort it out. This is the house that GB2 is adamant his family are going to move in to with Mum, that he has recently thrown me out of and that he likes to use as a bolt hole when he wants a night away from Mum, his partner and his child (I know that he sometimes even takes friends there). I've told her that GB2 will need to sort it out. I predict fireworks this weekend as this is something that will be awkward, time consuming (calls to organise plus staying at the house during working hours to wait in for someone to fix it etc), and more importantly it will impact GB2 directly if it's not done because it will make it difficult to use the house when he wants his next night away from home. There's nothing he can actually DO, to force me to do what he says, frighten me, intimidate me, or impact me in any way but that in itself will increase his frustration. I think it's quite likely that he will try to stop me from contacting Mum by phone - he has access to her mobiles and could block me, he could also remove my number from her 'speed dial' list and she would not be able to find it again. if he does, it's not what I wanted but so be it.

@OneBigDisappointment (one big diamond!) I don’t know how LC will be for me. I feel quite wound up when I know I am going to see my parents, and even with the LC I have found it difficult to “manage the relationship” as it involves biting my tongue or letting things go and then I feel resentful. I also can’t tell when things are brewing up to an argument (usually either an aggressive act or exchange from my dad, or a passive aggressive remark from my mum that I won’t be able to let go). So it’s not stress free. Like others here, I’m not entirely sure what it is that makes it hard to let go. I think it’s because I believe my parents always wanted me to be happy, but when I wasn’t they took this personally and attacked me for it rather than trying to support me with it. But then it begs the question - did they want me to be happy or did they just want me to present as happy?

I have read about covert narcissism and unfortunately recognise my mum in every part of the description apart from: not having empathy. I struggle to believe she doesn’t have empathy. But then when I think back and I see times when she made other people’s pain all about her, it’s possible I just haven’t seen it that way, but that’s actually how it was.

Anyway, all that is to say, LC might not end up being successful for me either!

@formalwellies good luck this weekend. I’ll be sending you strength and solidarity for anything GB throws your way 💪

Has anyone ever successfully got over this once they’ve realised they can’t have the sort of relationship they are looking for from a narc? Once they have realised it’s the narc and not them. What do you do with the relationship once you’ve come to this decision? I understand now that it is “expectations” that cause a lot of the pain. Not understanding that some people are not driven by emotions, some view them as inconveniences , confusions and annoyances. Some people want to run in the furthest direction and actively keep themselves too busy to have to deal with them. Some overwork, some just choose other things, but all are trying to avoid your emotional need for whatever reason. They are never going to ever choose to understand or come to the realisation because it’s not the relational landscape they live in. They are happy in the environment they have created, but like a flower in the wrong place we are
dying in this environment. There is no point in going back and trying to grow in that environment because it’s the desert so what do we do now? If we can’t really go no contact but the relationship is basically dead.

I won’t play happy families in the fact I will not cover Social media in happy family pictures. I will tell the truth, it is obvious who shows up and who doesn’t. I won’t sing their praises to my kids and tell them about relationships. What do I do with these people now?

I am sad that I lost my mum, then got into a relationship for over 10 years with a narc and now when I could really do with some love and gentleness I have a narc MIL and super competitive IN-laws. I just want peace and loving people. Why so unlucky!

Hope was what kept me going eerie. Hope that they'd just stop being an arse and start being a reasonable human being, even whilst knowing it was futile. That and fear at the possibility of losing all the family and not just the narcs.

Well, what I did with them, must, was I let them go. I kept trying to do LC for as long as possible, but their anger at me doing LC and not giving them what they wanted lead to a degree of nastiness from them that forced me to go NC.

@MustIgo I think all advice I have ever read if they are genuine narcs is NC. If for some reason you have to have (or choose to have) contact you need to grey rock as much as possible. Just try to see yourself as separate, you only have a specific reason for the contact and you stick to the terms of that - terms you choose yourself before seeing them. Eg, “I need to have contact with my child’s dad because of something related to child so I will text and state factually what needs to be discussed. I will not be sucked into arguments. I will repeat facts if necessary to keep the contact focused on the need. I will allow anything irrelevant that the narc says to pass without comment or emotional reaction” and just try to keep it at that. Change the terms for your in-laws, but choose the terms before you see them and stick to them. Seems to be the standard advice.

@SamAndAnnie I read in the book about immature parents that we tend to have a “healing fantasy” such as “If I do this right and put this much effort in and do all the right things then one day my parent(s) will see me and love me the way I always wanted. We’ll connect/they’ll apologise/etc” and that really, really hit home. It’s a hope and a longing, but it’s not possible if you’re dealing with people that have an aversion to their own feelings - narc or immature parent, neither can truly connect. And even though I know that and I sort of don’t have hope, I still can’t bring myself to cut contact completely.

The hardest bit is that they will be absolutely A ok with this, they won’t mourn for the relationship with an amazing person they have lost. They will not care, in fact they will be justified and it will probably feed them even more. To mean so little to people confuses me because people mean so much to me. You’d think the loss of a daughter or a son or grandchild would be something that would affect a person. Nobody means anything. I will personally slip away and have little impact. I don’t know why this makes me sad.

Thanks, that sounds really stressful. Your gb2 sounds immature, manipulative, and very controlling. Are you wanting to stay in touch with your Mum? That is terrifying he has so much power over her. You are doing the right thing by not giving in, you owe him nothing.

I really wanted LC to work with dm, but in my case things only got worse, especially with my young dcs involved.

I think in my situation it was triangulation with dm, my estranged sibling (golden child) and me (the scapegoat) that hugely complicated things. Dm and golden child are very much alike so a criticism of him is a criticism of her if that makes sense. I am similar to my late dad and he taught me what unconditional love was, (he died acouple of years ago, parents were divorced for 20+ years).

What made me wake up and realise was when dm wouldn't take any accountability for anything, and did the classic DARVO, to my face in my own home after I waited on her hand and foot for an entire day, and she then did it again on WhatsApp after I had been grey rocking (dm would not accept the low contact and I was apparently "driving everyone away." (Everyone i am assuming is her and sibling 🙄) Dm was estranged from close relatives, lost loads of friends and quite honestly I was lost for words.

Within it all dm insulted my df on the month of his death anniversary blaming him as well as the child and teenage version of me; she is a vindictive emotionally immature person, cluster B narc, (covert and overt I suspect).

The irony is that Dm's invalidating of my whole existence actually validated me in the end, because it made me see a lifetime of not feeling good enough and not feeling liked let alone loved by her wasn't a figment of my imagination; it was sadly the truth. I could never in my wildest dreams imagine telling my adult daughter what she told me. I had been striving all of my life to please her, clinging on to a tiny piece, a fragment of hope that maybe just maybe she had goodness in her, it couldn't be true, she had to have feeling behind the coldness. You could do 10 things for her, she would forget and focus on the 11th you did not do.

I am 40 with 2 young children and realised dm was affecting my health. I put my dcs first, they need their Mum healthy I cannot jump through hoops or pay the price for low contact with dm; it wasn't healthy for my dcs to witness either not a good relationship model. No matter how hard you try, there is always an elephant on the room, and eventually it just isn't worth it.

Or "in the room* that should have said, a lot of elephants!

This hurts my head. Needing your kids to align to a narrative is madness. These mothers are awful. If you want your kids to believe you are good then why not just be good.

Haha, I don't know about diamond, but thank you for your kindness.

It sounds like you're doing well with LC, and if you're comfortable and healthy than this is all that matters. I hope it does work out for you, and that things don't become worse

Estrangement is always the last resort, and I think you just know when you know (If it has to come to that). I felt very like you describe with contact and visits with dm for a long time although I would fall into the trap of over justifying, oversharing, still reaching out in a way, to still try to connect emotionally and being met with a brick wall. I still had misguided hope that she may change, or I just needed to understand her better.

I only suceeded in grey rocking after she made a particular nasty comment to me in my home back in spring time. Since then she sensed me pulling away and became worse, the dynamic was also unhealthy around dcs, as even with smiles in the same room, I masked and my oldest was picking up on it.

I always assumed estrangement would be this long drawn out planned and conflicted process. For me I didn't see it coming, maybe because I had always been in that weird and unhealthy dynamic with her. I hadn't realised that I had been chipped away at over a lifetime to the point I had already shed so many tears and grieved that there was nothing left in the end,. Dm unknownly spoke the words that cut the final thread, and validated my entire childhood, I hadn't imagined her hostility; it was real, that realisation felt incredible. Who would have thought that cruel words would actually make you feel relieved? No more self doubt, no more worrying. She has shown me who she really is, and I can accept myself for who I am now.

I have no second guessing or anything which has really surprised me. I think it happened when it was supposed to, I would have been conflicted at other times, not ready or not strong enough. After losing my df a couple of years ago who I was very close to, the dynamic with dm was even more obvious. They were divorced for over two decades but df taught me the meaning of love. Dm taught me what it looks like when there is no love. I could see it even more clearly, although dyoll tried for acouple of years, but it wasn't to be.

Low contact can work a lifetime for some, you have to do what is right for you. 💐
You have to choose what is right for you, and your family.

It appears the only people that suffer are the people around the narc whose relationship depends on emotional connection and empathy. I think that’s why they can look successful in their relationships outside of immediate family. I don’t understand how they don’t feel lonely? Do they not know that underneath they can’t connect to people? Do they even have any thoughts about how different they seem to be when looking around at others and their beautiful relationships?

Why does my BIL and SIL sit in their expensive house alone with their kids who are alone with their expensive toys and not feel a deep sense of aloneness. How can you not see that you can’t make human connections? You may be great at making money but not have a single emotional connection. How can you not know this?

I watched a film the other day called the unibomber. From what I can understand he was a very socially awkward person who struggled to form connections with people so went on to hate people and kill them. This seems to have grown from deep insecurity about himself projected onto others. Is this the same sort of thing? Deep down are narcs trying to connect to people but without the social skills needed. When they were young they must have felt deep insecurity about themselves. Does money make up for the deficiency within themselves of making human connection. I kind of understand what it feels like being AUDHD, I often feel a bit alien. Others seem to do easy what I find hard.