The Dating Thread 62 - They'll be FALLing for you 💖💕💘

[Nosdacariad]

The Rules:
-The first rule about the dating thread is don't talk about it with people you're dating
-Develop a thick skin
-Do not invest emotionally too soon
-It’s all BS until it actually happens
-Trust your gut instinct
-People vanishing, lying & being generally weird is not your fault
-Know your worth
-If it's not fun, stop
-Loo update is mandatory
-No dating the thread
-Treat others as you'd like to be treated
-Any relationship you have that could get ruined by having a conversation about your feelings, standards and/or expectations wasn't really stable enough to begin with
-The things you choose to ignore/ tolerate now are the reasons you will break up in the future
If you're wondering if you're being too picky/should give another chance after the second chance/should try harder - the answer is invariably NO! You're not and you shouldn't. If this, now, is as good as it's going to get, the A game, then do you want what comes next?!
-OLD can get very time consuming. Keep doing other activities you enjoy Optional: Please give your irons (potential dates you are talking to) nicknames like Mr Scottish. Initials are allowed (Mr S) when you are an item*

Would you want a FWB who is not cool enough to be your friend?

@Thiswillbefun we might have our usernames muddled.

But good on the attractiveness front!

I will go to hell - I just said no to a guy who left his height off his profile and he's shorter than me.

The more I think about his message, the more it annoys me.

If we accept for a minute that he is genuine and has genuinely just panicked because he feels that he whole have stronger feelings at this point than he does (and I am not sure it's that straightforward, but....).- then why the fuck hasn't he been man enough to deal with this on his own - think it through - take some time - talk to his mates - and only share it with you if and when he is 100% certain he wants to split? That would be the kind, respectful way to handle it.

Instead it's like he wants to involve you in his thought process about whether he has feelings for you....
This is so unfair..... Because even if he does decide that he wants to make a go of it now, you will always have this period in your mind, even if you end up getting married, it will always stay with you....

In a way it's a sophisticated form of negging, I think. One of my exes - the slimiest - Mr Tortoise - always made sure I was well aware that he was unsure about our relationship and whether he was romantically in love with me - he liked me to exist on a knife's edge of insecurity. (Fuck that shit).

Again I am probably over identifying, but please proceed carefully. Whether from emotional ineptitude or intent to manipulate/play power games, either way, this is a very shitty thing he has done by voicing these.doubts to yuy, given that he now appears he actually wants to keep seeing you after all.......

I have to say, from everything you say about him my mental imagine of Tree is of a really nice guy. (You know the way you get a mental picture of some of the irons after a while). I imagine him a little bit rough around the edges (in a good way) but really good hearted, both in his approach to the world in general and towards you in particular.

I hope I am right!

The things you would like to change slightly - do you think they require change on his part, or yours, or both?

One of my therapists told me "you will never change anyone else, so don't even try "

But another (he was more of a life coach) said that if I need a bloke to make a reasonable change, I should just ask him and that most decent men will try to change, and if they won't even attempt it that shows they are not a good man.....

So God knows! 🤣

What is your gut reaction as to how Tree would respond if you raise these slight concerns? Is he one of those guys who would rather have his toenails pulled out than talk about the relationship.

One thing that strikes me about your post is that you are very conscious of not asserting yourself enough in previous relationships - and that almost feels like self blame - if it is in any way, please remember that you didn't just spontaneously decide to let someone trash your boundaries - that will have happened in a context - and that context will have been skilfully created by the person/people who trashed them. You wouldn't negatively judge any other woman this happened to - so pleased don't subject yourself to a harsher judgement. I hope you don't mind me saying that - you are always wo kind and thoughtful to everyone on here, and I hate the thought of you not affording yourself the same understanding. Xxx

It sounds like it's been pretty positive so far! Really I think all you can do is play it by ear now. He could just be calming down after the original rush of excitement but still keen, and let's hope it's that. I would just try not to get too overwhelmed attached at this stage, as it's still such early days.....

You mentioned not feeling physically attracted at the start - did that change ov or the course of the first date? Or by the second? Interested as I suspect I never give this aspect enough chance!

Sorry, I should have said. We'd said we were exclusive and had deleted our apps. However after this latest conversation, I think that's going to change (from my side) quite quickly, lol.

💯 what @Ilovelurchers says about you blaming yourself.

Separately -

@BananaPopcorn I also think this is subtle negging. Like planes did to me, and with more subtlety Beered did to "I'm confused".

It feels like a test of your self esteem. Do you think enough of yourself to show him the door?

Yeah so sorry lovely you!

Re load them and give him not another ounce of your effort unless he volunteers a lovely planned date and texts first 😘😘😘

Yes, now I've had more time to reflect, this is also exactly how I feel. Like you say, talk to your mates etc! I actually had a wobble about him earlier on and I did what normal people do - had a good think about it and whinged to my mates about it. I certainly wouldnt have told HIM I was feeling unsure and asked him what he thought I should do?! Ugh.

But yeah you're right. If I carried on seeing him this would always be in my head now. I already have quite big issues with confidence and self-worth (I think a lot of that is down to my last relationship) and I've been really working hard on that, and to have better boundaries. If I carried on seeing him now, my self-worth would be in the gutter.

God, Mr Tortoise sounds awful! What did he used to do to make you feel like that? Honestly though with Mr Forest, even after all this I don't think he's actually a bad guy, so I'm inclined to think it's more just emotional ineptitude and being a bit immature. I'm certainly starting to understand why he's nearly 40 and never had a proper long term relationship.

I have awful self-esteem/confidence issues which is probably why I've not already shown him the door 🙄but I do know that's probably the right thing to do at this point.

Thank you ❤you are so right. I'm stepping back now, will see if he messages/asks for a date then decide from there. And will probably come here for advice first 😂

@IlovelurchersI messaged last night and no reply. He always messages late at night and pretty early in the morning so I think either his phone is broken 🤣 or he has changed his mind.
With regards the attractiveness I felt a real spark and wanted to kiss him but I didn't look at him and feel attracted. It was his vibe and personality I think. To be fair it might be as it was my first date in over 20 years! When I saw him in the 2nd date I was instantly attracted to him.

Tortoise and I had been friends for nearly two decades when we got together - he was actually my teaching mentor initially and a lot older than me so I guess there was an inbuilt power imbalance there.

He got me on the rebound from my marriage to DD's Dad, when I was also in a horrible situation being bullied at my work - and he massively love bombed at first (I honestly hadn't even fancied him, then he came over with wine, I got wrecked and we shagged) - and he love bombed so much, I really became quite dependant on him quite quickly. In retrospect I was in no way ready to start another relationship so soon.

And then once I was hooked, the negging started. He convinced me I had a mental illness, told me I was unattractive .... My life coach (who shouldn't really express opinions like this I know) absolutely HATED him and believed he was using techniques usually used by cult leaders (this was Tortoise's area of expertise - he had infiltrated various cults and written about them) to control me.....

God, it's depressing how many of us on here (all lovely, supportive, intelligent women) have been treated like shit in relationships in so many different ways....

Negging is particularly pernicious I think - I am now at a point where I think I would run at the first sign of it. It takes a particularly twisted mind I think, to intentionally make a partner feel insecure about themselves in order to gain power over them - it's pretty sick when you think about it .....

And interestingly that's one of the things that draws me back to DD's dad in a way. Whatever else he did, he always made it clear that he found me attractive, intelligent, funny - great in all ways basically. (The trouble is, he was doing the same thing for lots of other women too! 🤣 🤦).

@Ilovelurchers thank you for sharing this. What a disgusting abuser tortoise is, how predatory.

You make me glad it was Planes' negging that made me flee 💙💜💙

@Ilovelurchers- that’s dreadful re Tortoise - so sorry - far too many of these guys around - makes me angry it still continues when it should have been left in the 80s - well should never have happened but you know I remember those strange times well!

@Nosdacariadas well - Negging is insidious- I believe negative comments stick in our brains anyway rather than positive ones.

I hope my favourite neg comments received won’t offend anyone - I laugh about them now myself as so baffling a turn of phrase - ‘too fat to fuck’ - only I wasn’t as it turned out 🙈 as it changed to ‘never fucked a fat bird but I ought to see what it’s about’ This was Mr Situationship so I was quite used to how he was at the point I had started to put my timber on and was a 12 at that point rather than the 8-10 I’d been a couple of years - yeah I stayed around!

@Ilovelurchers- thank you for your lovely reply on my Mr T wobbles - and @Nosdacariad- you’re both kind but also very clear.
I think maybe we are both stumbling around in the mists of what dating looks like ha! We mirror each other’s texts to an extent - if I’m a bit cool then he is - stock phrasing like ‘hope to see you soon’ gets used - it’s just all that bit ‘awkward’ At times - but still amazing in person - could be I guess influenced by amazing chemistry which is still - somehow! - increasing every time! But we have not bed fun too and get on well. Then I think we’ll he’d get on well with everyone- or he’s realising I’m not a catch etc etc - as we aren’t really defined or sure yet.

Lurchers - he’s a lovely guy - it was my word for him from the day we met tbh and still is just about more stuff and more so! That doesn’t mean we will work or even that there aren’t things about him that I wouldn’t find so lovely - but I’ll try recall this more that he’s basically decent - well lovely lol.

Thanks again both.

It's weird, but when you mention Planes, for some reason I always envisage Tortoise..... There are definitely differences (one of the few good things about Tortoise was that by the time I met him he definitely had work and finances sorted) but it may well have been the subtle negging I was picking up on.....

And that's just gob-smacking - a) that he could describe a size 12 as "fat" with a straight face, b) that he felt that in any reality these were appropriate comments to make to another human being.

The weight thing unfortunately seems quite widespread. I am now a size 12 in most clothing lines, and a fair few irons now have described me as "curvy" - and yes at least it's said in a positive way, but still, the fact that they see a size 12 body as unusually large is beyond depressing.

Makes me worry for my daughter - she's a size 10-12, very healthy, eats well without being obsessive about it in any way - personally I think she looks great - but she will at times make critical comments about how "fat" she is looking , when she honestly looks anything but....

Another thing that irks me is that so often, the men making these comments are very far from slim themselves. Now, I'm fine with that - I actively find bigger guys more attractive, if anything. But Hell would freeze over before I would comment on their weight in any way I felt could potentially hurt or offend.....

If that's fat there's no help for me 😱

Planes would definitely have taken advantage of his mentee but was never a school teacher.

At one point he had a proper job and money though not in this country or decade.

I'm a tallish size 16 with enormous boobs.

I would not have that kind of chat round my daughters x

Yeah, so Mr Situationship was slim and toned, till he wasn’t - I just smirked to myself at that point though.

I’ve graduated from size 12 myself since lol, so it’s fortunate I’m not currently getting these comments as trying to reduce even slightly is such hard work at 60!

My 4 daughters have a variety of shapes but one is slender, tall and bloody obsessive about her weight - from bad times earlier as a teen/early 20s - not just negging but one guy provided diet pills - not good - she was never, ever even overweight. She knows where it arises from but it’s her go to under stress - she is hyper aware for her nieces/nephews never to let this happen to them.

How do you protect them from those messages though? That's what I really struggle with.

I would never say anything critical of my weight or any other woman's in front of her, and I fully trust her dad wouldn't either, nor would either of us allow those comments to be said in front of her if we could possibly avoid it.

But I feel like it's just everywhere in society..... And so insidious......

But yes, no man who made negative comments about my weight or any other woman's would be introduced to her. To be honest I'm not in any rush to introduce her even if I do meet someone nice! That's not because I think it's inherently bad to do so - some women just couldn't have a love life at all unless they allowed theirnnew partner to be around their kids - and some step dads are really great and add a lot to a kid's life.

But for me personally, I just feel she is with her dad often enough to give me a decent amount of time for dating, so I just don't need that additional complication. Who knows, maybe that would change if I let someone I was really into ......

@Ilovelurchers really I mean what you said here

No man who made negative comments about my weight or any other woman's would be introduced to her.

Except I have two daughters 😁

Weirdly his ex over the road has a daughter recovering from anorexia and she's happy to have him around her - but the ex makes similar comments about people 😱

Can I ask how you all dealt with differing communication styles, especially early on?

Let me prefix with Mr Hat is so present when we're together and is barely on his phone, so I know he's barely on his phone when he's not with me!

I know I have quite an anxious attachment style (working on it), but there are huge gaps not hearing from him day to day. We speak every day, but it's sporadic.

I absolutely don't want to tell him "you need to text me more" (I'm 41, I need to get over myself) but any tips or tricks? I know I'm the problem! Realising I still have stuff to work through after exh fucked off unexpectedly.

(Annoyingly makes me think of Mr M, who was always in contact - and I mustn't forget messaging other dates when he was with me!)