Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

@BustyLaRoux i think our ND partner need us for co regulation. They need us calm so they get their footing back.
DH doesn’t cope with me being emotional. He just shuts down and freezes unlike your ex who went all fight mode. It’s not much better tbh because you still dint have any resolution. No apologies. No repair. No change in behaviour.

Doesn’t everyone want calm peaceful lives. Aren’t we supposed to try and be the calm for our partners and they be for us when we find ourselves a bit stormy. It’s very hard to not ask for regulation from a partner because that’s almost impossible. Hormones happen, people die, emergencies, sickness, accidents etc etc, this is the real world, it doesn’t just stop. I would have thought regulated needs was a two way street. I suspect in my family situation self sufficiency was promoted heavily purely so we didn’t come to my mum with emotions. Being a women I think this was harder then my brother to do.

I was allowed feelings @Theydontwantme as long as they weren’t negative feelings connected to him. I could be worried about an issue with my DC, I could be annoyed with someone at work, I could be tired or unwell or hormonal, or sad on the anniversary of my mum’s death. All fine. In fact I would go so far as to say he was really kind in all those situations. He would listen to me ranting, bring me stuff to cheer me up, entertain me, pop to the chemist for me. He’s a very attentive guy!
But as soon as I felt annoyed or saddened by him (or one of his DC) then he would become angry. Either he would stop talking to me and make his displeasure very apparent, or he would fly into a rage and throw things, swear shout. I don’t know which was worse!

I’m in the same boat as you @SpecialMangeTout3. I understand what you mean about Neff and accommodations and it annoys me too, but it’s more balanced than all that ‘world is designed by evil neurotypicals’ type of stuff you find online.

Tbf DH goes to therapy even when he doesn’t want to and his skills are really improving. I am also trying super hard. I’m making the choice to stay etc etc. Just wish it didn’t take up so much headspace. My kids are super hard work too, even though they are lovely gorgeous people at the same time. And perimenopause! Just. Everything. Is. A. Massive. Effortttttt….!

Snap with the kids and menopause …,It’s killing my ability to keep caring to be honest and putting up with the selfishness. We all need stuff, this whole can’t see outside of myself I can’t seem to accommodate anymore as I just want some bloody attention. I’m loosing the I don’t care about my needs and I’ll happily sacrifice myself for you all! I am actually a person as much as anyone else, ND or not. I’m ND and I need accommodations but no one gives me any. I really dislike the behaviour where it’s all about their world. I some how feel adhd is much easier to deal with then asd.

“While they may seem unconcerned with others' feelings, this is often due to an inability to recognise those emotions rather than a lack of empathy.”

I read this which made sense a little. Might explain the avoidance. It’s not for lack of care it’s simply having no ideas when to react so trying to ignore all is a good way of dodging the bullet, you don’t react “wrong” if you aren’t there. But this is self protecting and in the end hurts the other and damages the safety in a relationship. I can see why they would sacrifice a relationship rather then admit that there is a “problem” with their reasoning and that they mask a lot of empathy which they don’t actually feel.

With my DH there is a chasm between his reaction to physical pain which he can see and mental pain which he cannot read at all.

In spite of the fact that I was shedding tears on a regular basis a couple of months back, he was shocked when I told him that I was at the end of my tether.

This morning when I have my left shoulder in a brace and am popping pain killers like smarties, he's full of concern. And very irritatingly trying to second guess my every move so he can "help" 😆 !

It's how I know he just can't help the lack of concern for emotional pain in others.

Then again, when he's in one of his frequent troughs of depression, he can't do either.

I am finding all the relationships I seem to have extremely difficult at the moment. I never realised just how many people I have in my life who live in their own worlds, even my own partner, parents and kids. I am lucky to have a couple of friends who reach out. I need people, I can’t live how they live. They are all happy in their little self absorbed world, they are unaffected by anyone, they don’t want deeper relationships. I feel so shallow in my relationships.

@Imdunfer thank you for correcting the idiotic poster on the alcohol thread (sorry I am aware this is completely off topic!!! But it’s been annoying me all day!) saying she had bottles of wine in her cupboard which were 14 units. I corrected her misinformation and provided a screen shot. I certainly wasn’t rude. But she was having none of it! She called me a prick and continued telling me how wrong I was. Restating her misinformation with “Fact!” after it (a personal bugbear of mine as my autistic ex and his son would often state their view followed by “fact!” or “100%” said loudly and energetically several times over the top of me to stop me from expressing a different view (as clearly different view to them = wrong. Obviously!). Anyway this poster got very riled, restated her incorrect “fact” at me, called me a prick. Said the word “fact” (which must mean she was correct), and accused me of needing to use AI to prove a point when she knows much better than me as she has 14 unit bottles of St Emillion wine in her cupboard!!

You corrected her ridiculousness. (Thank you!) She clearly read the ABV and got confused. Then dug in harder and got annoyed and was rude (whilst taking the high ground!).

Oh and then later backtracked and said a bottle was 11-12 units. And then in a later post 8-10 units (I had told her a bottle was 9 units but I was a prick apparently). I worked in the wine trade for a few years. I know how many units are in a bottle! I’ve been to St Emillion in order to drink these lovely wines more than once. They’re some of my favourites! I don’t know why it annoyed me so much. I think it was the use of “fact” and the name calling, and the latter backtracking without any acknowledgment she’d made a mistake.

Reminded me of a few partners on here…. (Mine included!!!)

Anyway, sorry everyone, off topic! As you were. Just wanted to thank @Imdunfer for some sense and solidarity!

Glad to help! I was smiling at the idea of a 19.5% abv St Emilion 😆, I think that might be better called port.

It was perfectly clear, to you and me anyway, that she cannot have had a bottle of St Emilion with "14 units" printed on the label because nobody makes one 😁

I know! I think she toddled off after someone else queried maybe she was looking at the ABV and not the units. Realised she was wrong. But instead of owning it (having insisted she knew better than some idiot who had to rely on AI 😆) she kept quiet and in subsequent posts just quietly reduced the units in a bottle down to a reasonable 8-10

exDP would do stuff like this. Swear he was absolutely correct about something. Get annoyed with me for having a different opinion. Shout 100% at me several times. If I bothered to prove him wrong he would just shrug and say “and? So what?!” But often he’d been really horrible to me!!!

I don’t know there seemed a similarity with this person just digging in hard. Being unpleasant. Then realising they’d actually made a mistake. But having no ownership of it despite having made such a huge fuss about it in the first place. Why can’t people just be nice? I’ve had a right day of today!!!

I don’t really understand it when people say it’s not a lack of empathy, it’s an inability to recognise emotions. Isn’t that kind of the same thing?! You surely need to recognise an emotion before you can begin empathise with someone?

A couple of my autistic people might actually recognise the emotion, but if it isn’t an emotion they would feel if they were in that situation, then it’s like they think the other person isn’t entitled to feel that way. They dismiss the emotion as silly and say “but I wouldn’t feel like that!”

I’ve not really agreed with the notion that autistic people are just as empathetic as the next person, only they don’t know how to show it. I cannot obviously speak for all autistic people, but the many in my life don’t seem to have much empathy at all. They can do sympathy. They can be very kind. But empathy? Nah. Not with my lot!

@Theydontwantme its good you have some friends to lean on or get some emotion back from. Obviously not the same as if it’s your partner or closest family though. I’m sorry you’re having such a difficult time right now. It’s really hard when your relationships don’t give you what you need. I don’t have any advice. Just a handhold. And to say we understand. My dad has no empathy whatsoever. It’s not malicious. He just doesn’t. My mum is dead. And I’ve finished my relationship with DP. It feels very alone sometimes though I am lucky to have kind friends and a brother. I don’t think I would be able to get by without them. It’s not the same though is it? X

I think I was just trying to make myself feel better but I think you are right. I worked with an autistic lady. She has very little issues with dealing with the public.I said to her one day don’t you feel bad being so harsh in case this person is having a hard day. She simply said, I don’t care.

@BustyLaRoux when you say they can be really kind but not empathetic I don’t really understand this? I have to say my mum can be kind, I mean she will do kind things like plant flowers in the community or give to charity etc, she can offer her support (but she fails often on following that through) she can only seem to offer support for someone she feels support is needed. But that’s the thing support is needed where it’s needed and it’s not up to the giver to decided who needs it and who doesn’t. Having someone show up inconsistent is a real issue. Also having someone decide what is and isn’t worthy is also an issue. I think the issue is in a kind of faulty sensor (or should I say different set sensor). I feel what I feel and need what I need and it’s not up at interpretation.

@BustyLaRoux do you find that, after fighting for so long to be heard when you know you’re right and the other person digs their heels in, then anyone else doing so is a huge trigger? I know I’m so much more senstive to that now. I really have to remind myself it doesn’t matter when I read some threads on here! But I still have this urgency to try and make them see their error, explain myself etc… 😁😂😂

Reading these posts has made me even more convinced a man I was in a three year relationship with is ND. I struggled so badly with all the words about love but that very often not being enacted in the real world, his absolute inability to confront relationship issues, instead shutting down or taking time away and hiding. He’s very meticulous, his house, his car, his clothes. The list goes on. He has rigid routines which I struggled with but tried to work with. I’ve explained and explained about how it’s all made me feel, but was often dismissed and diminished as he chose not to deal with issues I perceived about the relationship and stick with his rather blinkered view. He absolutely denies he’s ND, that’s his choice but I I had to end it although he’s struggling to accept it and still reaching out to me despite me drawing very firm boundaries. It’s been very difficult and quite traumatic! :(

I think (well, I KNOW) I have a tendency to want things to be factually correct (displaying my own autistic characteristics there!). It isn’t so much that I myself need to be right. I don’t have a problem with being wrong. It’s that I find it difficult to just walk on by when someone is stating something which I know is incorrect. If they pair this with a snooty, condescending attitude then yes, it sets me off. It’s one thing to be wrong about something. Fine, we all get things wrong. It’s when someone is being horrid about it.

So DP loudly going “100%, 100%. 100%….” over and over to prevent me from expressing a different view. It’s just so rude! This poster correcting me, telling me they know better than me, swearing blind their claim is “fact” and calling me a prick. There’s just no need for people to behave like that! Especially when they’re not even correct! When you do, politely, show them their “fact” isn’t a fact at all, they don’t have the decency to say “oh right, I see, yeah I got that wrong” and maybe look a bit sheepish that they were so rude about it.

I should learn to shrug it off. I should leave them to their “facts”. But it’s difficult for me when people are wrong AND rude! It’s the killer combo!

With this idiot poster and her silly claims about alcohol units, I guess it’s not important (although spreading misinformation to the original OP about how much she was drinking is arguably, not very helpful). With my exDP he has very poor recall of any detail. His brain doesn’t do detail. So he fills in the blanks. Rather than accept this is just what he does, he insists his “memory” of a conversation is “100%” correct, (I, on the other hand, have really good memory for detail) and this used to cause a LOT of problems.

If we met with his solicitor about some really important stuff, he would recount what he’d been told. And it would be wrong! And this caused an awful lot of problems. He would not accept he hasn’t grasped what they were saying and would start saying he didn’t need to do x or y. (He did need to!!).

If we made an agreement about something the day before, he would get muddled and get the arrangement wrong, but then insist he was correct and I had “misremembered”. It was something that happened nearly every day! I wouldn’t have minded, but there was never any benefit of the doubt. He would never listen. It always had to me who must have it wrong. He wasn’t nice about it. He was angry and accusatory. Often ending the conversation with “we will have to just agree to disagree”. I would say ok fine. But that could never be the end of it. He would always need to then add “all I’m saying is…..” and then reiterate his incorrect version of events. If I dared to speak, he would literally shout “AGREE TO DISAGREE” at me until I stopped talking!

I should care less, but I guess I am triggered to some extent when someone behaves like this.

There are other points of view. We all make mistakes. It’s ok to admit when you have made a mistake. It’s never OK to be an asshole about it!

Sorry to hear this. Being with someone who has very rigid routines and having no sense of the other person in the relationship is very hard. Ultimately it matters not if they admit they are ND. The behaviour is not compatible with the relationship you want. If they had recognised their behaviour and learnt to address it to be more flexible, more accommodating, more attuned to the needs of other people, then you would have had something to work with. But a failure to accept or act on behaviours which are causing a problem is the death knell for a relationship. I’m sorry it’s been traumatic.

Kindness is easy I suppose. One can learn how to perform kindness. DP was very kind and generous with his time and effort. Sometimes in a stifling way! He could be over attentive a lot of the time. I suppose in a way those acts of kindness were making the situation about him. Because he would go overboard. He would almost make me/ people feel a bit awkward with how much he was giving. You just wanted to say “enough! Please. That’s enough. Thank you!”

For me, empathy is about understanding WHY someone feels the way they do even (and this is important bit!) if you yourself wouldn’t feel like that in that situation. It’s about respecting people’s different way of doing things, different way of feeling. Thinking outside of yourself. This is part my autistic people don’t really seem able to learn. My dad can learn a social rule (remember to ask how Busty is doing at the start of the conversation!). But he clearly has no interest in the response. If I talk about an emotion, he literally doesn’t know what to say. In fact will often say “well there you go!” And move on to one of his “safe” topics. My SIL is extremely kind, but she cannot understand or accept that people have different ways of doing things. She cannot go with the flow. She needs to assert herself and becomes agitated if people suggest something different. There is no sense of ‘maybe my way doesn’t work for that person’.

I also think they confuse kindness with empathy. SIL tells me often she knows she is very empathetic. She isn’t! But she is very kind.

That makes sense. The kindness does feel like it’s about them being kind rather than making the other person feel something. Empathy is kindness personalised and for the other person. You can be very in control of kindness as it’s based on understanding and logic. It has been confusing me because many people say my mum is so kind, which she is and she enjoys many people telling her so. But she isn’t to me or any of her close family, she has no empathy for us, she promotes us to be kind but it all feels like a performance. What I’ve wanted is to be seen when no one is looking, to be hugged and validated (not going to happen as we know). She has sometimes sent me flowers with a completely empty card, what are they for, why just the act of kindness with zero reason. Empty birthday cards, gifts she loves but mean nothing to me.

I think I understand this all now. My autistic person can only view things from the perspective of herself. So she thinks we should all think like her, be extensions . My brother does (but only because he’s never shown a different world) I do not. I’ve always felt faulty but I think I realise now I am not, I’m faulty at being like her because I’m like me. So compared to her and in her world I am different so that means she can’t understand me. I have always referred to myself in terms of them, which has been my problem.

The kindness does feel like it’s about them being kind rather than making the other person feel something. Empathy is kindness personalised and for the other person

Exactly this @Theydontwantme. They say to themselves (again, caveat, not all autistic people, etc etc) “I want to show that I care”. It is about THEM caring, not the recipient feeling CARED FOR. If it were the latter it would be about considering what that person actually needed. That requires empathy. And I don’t think it can be learnt if it isn’t inherent. Kindness can be learnt.

One can perform a gesture and say “I am kind, I care about people”. But with exDP, the gestures are often over the top. It maybe starts with wanting me to feel cared for, but quickly becomes about him fulfilling his role as “carer” and losing sight of what I might need/want and just performing more and more gestures of kindness that I don’t really want. It sounds ungrateful of me. I had to be very careful not to sound ungrateful and would often eat and drink things I didn’t want just so as not for him to feel rejected. So again, what started off as wanting me to cared for, ends up with me having to consider HIS needs!

SIL also with this tendency. Goes over and above for strangers. Interferes when it’s not necessary and creates an awkward situation! But she wants to perform the role of “caring and kind” so she ignores what the person actually might want and instead does what SHE would want. She can’t accept that what they want or need might be different to her.

Sounds like your mum also performs a role so she can say “I am kind and caring” but is unable to actually consider what someone might need or want and instead ticks a box. Giving flowers = kind. Self affirming. More about her than you.

And again I think when autism supporters and advocates say “but they are empathetic, they just don’t understand emotions or don’t know how to show it!” I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I think empathy and being caring / kind are being confused here. The autistic people I know are all kind and caring. They know how to do this (even if they get it wrong some of the time). But it’s about them fulfilling a role. Empathy would mean they know when to step back as their interference isn’t required. But they can’t do that because they’re too busy ticking the kindness boxes to demonstrate to themselves and others how caring they are. That sounds cruel of me. I don’t mean it to. It’s nice to be cared about, but it does come with a lack of any real understanding about how I might actually feel or what I might actually want. And, as you say, can feel a bit empty or self gratifying in many ways.

Sadly this is ringing a whole church tower full of bells!

It's about how he feels about caring about me, not about how I feel about him caring about me.

When his illnesses make life difficult for me, then showing concern means a conversation beginning "I feel dreadful that I'm making life difficult for you".

Yeah, thanks for that, do you want me to comfort you for feeling so dreadful, on top of everything else?

This inability to see from another person's viewpoint extends to the physical too.

My DH will extend his arm and point at something in the distance, then get irritated that I don't know what he pointing at, because my eyes are a metre to the right of his! The other day he got irritated that I wasn't taking action to avoid a pothole in the entrance to a car park, and had no awareness of the fact that where it was placed, I couldn't see it.