Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

Absolutely, thank you for your insightful response. It’s the exact reason I finally ended it properly. He’s displayed a want and desire to change now and seems quite desperate for me to give him an opportunity to show he can do that but I’m too hurt and exhausted from battling to be bothered with it anymore. Such a wasted opportunity really, maybe he can take this experience onto another relationship and actually consider these rather fundamental elements for a more successful outcome next time 😔

It makes so much sense. Getting to 50’s and beyond thinking that you are “normal” I hate that word but never being taught about yourself and others etc like my daughter is. In their undiagnosed eyes we must be the problem.

My Family is like a performance, very convincing but on the inside there is nothing. It makes sense now, empathy is huge, it’s like only seeing in 2D.

Is this Theory of Mind?

“I know it, so therefore it MUST be obvious to you!”

It’s sad, but it isn’t your job to fix his behaviours. As you say, maybe he can take his new learning and apply it to his next relationship. But you don’t owe him anything and need to put yourself first. Anyway likely there would still be issues because people do not drastically change just like that. It requires constant work.

Also, here comes the empathy thing again, while someone can learn not to do x or y, as a rule to follow, without the deeper understanding of why this is an issue, they’ll just do a and b instead! And when you say “why have you done a? That’s exactly what I was talking about! I can’t manage this anymore!” They look blankly and say “but I stopped doing x and y!!”

It requires deeper understanding and empathy and that takes so much effort, on both sides. If you haven’t the appetite, then no one could blame you!

I'm not well up on that term, but your description is right.

They assume that anything they know, you must know. I know it's one of the childhood tests that they do, two cups and a ball and a child and an observer. Place the ball under the right hand cup and send the observer out of the room. Move the ball to the left hand cup and ask the child which cup the observer will think the ball is under. They'll usually say the left hand cup because that's where they know it is. They can't place themselves in the mind of the other person who didn't see the ball moved.

That reminds me of dc2.
So many times, as a child, I reminded him that Hes I know he has thought about it. Yes he knows etc… but that doesn’t mean I know because I can’t read in his mind. He has to tell me.

It’s not as bad now he is an adult. Even though he still doesn’t see an issue with not, at least, acknowledging a text/WhatsApp. He is seen it, Thars enough right?

For balance, I have two autistic women (yes women, not men….) who, despite ND, are actually very self aware and empathetic.
Both have gone on to work in jobs that really require empathy and the ability to ‘read people’. One of them is autistic + PDA + cptsd (thanks to her autistic mum, who, now in her 80s, is still a real nightmare to deal with).

Now why are they able to do that?
One has 3 dcs who are ND. She is a single mum and learning about ND, both autism and adhd, has been her special interest (so she can best support her dcs). She is awesome at it. And there isn’t a trace of lack of accountability in her approach, quite the opposite (which really sets her well apart from many autism positive approaches). She has ADHD too which means she probably had more theory of mind in the first place. But basically she learnt.
My other friend thought, for years, that all the issues in her behaviour was around trauma. So again this became her special interest and she has dived in it a lot. As a result, she is able to spot patterns that many NT don’t (me included and I think I’m usually pretty switched on). She comes across as very empathic. She knows there are things (like asking how the other person is doing) that are necessary. All in all, despite being quite affected (think level 2 rather than level 1 autism) she still comes across as empathic and kind.

What I am trying to say is that I really don’t feel this should be set in stone. I actually feel it’s a disservice to ND to say ‘oh they lack theory of mind. That’s the way it is. It won’t change so you have to accommodate around them’ because actually many of them can when supported/taught (or self taught).

The problem is that men, ofc, aren’t expected to be that empathic in general (NT included) so I suspect theyre much less likely to manage the learning iyswim.

I think you may well have it there @SpecialMangeTout3 about men not being required to be empathetic generally. Though I hope that’s changing in society a bit. Not enough. But there is a move for men to talk openly to each other, check in, not be afraid to share, etc.

My autistic female friend is like you describe. She understands herself and her DC really well and has worked hard to ensure her DC are understanding and accountable. My SIL though whilst very kind and caring, struggles (and can become quite challenging) when asked to consider things outside of her experience/preference. Quite male really if we’re being general.

Certainly I hope I don’t imply that all autistic people are like this or that. I do think people can change. ExDP did a huge amount of work on himself. We probably would have stayed together but living apart, but life events got in the way. People can change to some extent but it requires a lot of work from BOTH parties if in a relationship. I don’t blame people for walking away. Sometimes you don’t have enough fuel in the tank to manage someone else.

I know you don’t mean all ND or autistic people.
I think it’s me getting grumpy at the attitude of autistic allies/autism positive people who seem to think the starting point is that they might be able able to learn scripts but will never really change because brain/neuro difference etc….

I feel it’s restrictive for ND people.
I also find it galling as someone with cptsd. CPTSD is also leading to changes in the brain, different wiring etc…. Yet if you have cptsd you’re expected to work on yourself, learn about your triggers etc etc… no one is expected to accommodate around you.
Same if you’re disabled or chronically ill. Accommodation comes up to a level but after that you’re supposed to remember about carer burnout, making it easier for them, being grateful etc…

This situation we have now with autism where the autistic person is put right at the centre (and it’s a due) and everyone is supposed to accommodate is an unusual one in the disability world. I feel it infantilise ND people. It removes responsibility and for them to have the opportunity to grow.
I of course don’t mean they should have no accommodation at all. But I think we can safely expect more without asking them to mask iyswim.

And then we come to what I think is probably a very fine distinction between learning and adaptation and masking. And by saying this I don't think it's entirely wrong to ask people to learn to mask if they can do so without damage and if it improves their own life and the lives of those around them.

My own DH was a lot better at this until he got ill. I don't think it helps that one of his illness is neurological, late onset epilepsy, but I do think he was steadily getting less able to show something that resembles genuine empathy the older he got.

People have to want to change and recognise their behaviour. In my own experience mine performs so well that there is no need to do this. I think disorders develop and this is where it gets difficult.

People have to want to change and recognise their behaviour exactly this!

I see too many unable to recognise there’s even a problem with their behaviour.

exDP really did want to change. He could see he was upsetting me, his DD. He could see he was getting his life in a mess. He knew the task avoidance, the absolutism, the silent treatment were problems. He could listen and reflect (not in the moment. In the moment he would usually be angry!). He did change. He did try. He did listen. But, my god did it take a fuck of a lot of input and emotional labour from me. I just burnt out in the end. As so many of you warned me (of course I didn’t listen) that my physical health would suffer. And it really did. I went from being in the gym most days to being unable to walk to the end of the road. No one knew what was wrong with me. It was the worst period of my life. I developed chronic anxiety. Honestly, I didn’t recognise myself. My life just stopped.

So I didn’t have anything left to manage DP anymore. I think it was my body’s way of telling me to let go.

So yes, change is possible, but with exDP it was only possible because of the sheer effort I invested. (Not saying DP didn’t put in effort! He absolutely did). And it cost me dearly. Perhaps I would have got sick anyway. Or perhaps my nervous system was shot to pieces because of the trauma of the last six years. Who knows.

In the end, he couldn’t change enough and I had zero left to give.

I think with my SIL and dad. They’re just not aware the need to change! They don’t recognise their behaviour. My dad is nearly 80 and has mellowed a lot over the years. I doubt he’ll be around much longer. He doesn’t need to change! My SIL is so centred on herself as victim/martyr, and has dangerously now got a counsellor who just reaffirms that she is a victim, that she is belittled and dismissed. It’s everything she needs to validate her behaviour (which I am sure she must downplay to the counsellor). So I doubt she would ever change. My brother would have to be prepared to invest similar to what I put in and I don’t think he could even if he wanted to. I love her, but she won’t change. She’d have to stop thinking of herself as the victim in every interaction and with her new counsellor supporter, I don’t think this will happen.

I don’t think it’s says anything bad about us as people to want to help people that we love, especially when they have a lot of positives. There is a lot at stake, to loose a relationship that is really important. It’s very sad to leave a relationship and to realise they they are not healthy. I am very sad to know that I have lost any hope of a relationship with my family. It has worn me down to the bones and they are still as strong as they always were. Being empathetic can be a real problem which they seem to avoid by having little.

I agree there is a very fine line there. It’s even harder because that line will be at a different place for different people.

I always think about a thread on here with a mum desperate with her teen dd.
the dd had PDA, was having massive meltdowns where she was getting dangerous (hitting people). Often around going to school.
The mum had tried all the low demand approaches. It wasn’t working.
Then she decided to actually hold the line, stop the ‘low demand’ approach and just say ‘you’re going to school’. In a couple of months, things settled massively. The dd was much easier to be around and was happier in herself. Less meltdowns etc….

i certainly have found that being very clear with dh, to the point it’s making me uncomfortable really, is what helps. Clear message, clear instructions. No deviation. Like making things low demand, giving choices, asking ‘when will you do xyz?’ is adding a layer of uncertainty that doesn’t work for him. (Plus ofc it’s assuming that he doesn’t see doing xyz as optional….)

I agree with you that it’s tiring. And if you don’t have the spare capacity, it’s even harder.

Illness makes everything 100x harder. Whether it’s the ND or the NT who is being ill too,

“very fine distinction between learning and adaptation and masking”
@Imdunfer you nailed it with this.
This trips so many of us up at the start.. and then we’re left holding on, hoping hoping hoping…
And so the slide downwards begins and the damage to our nervous systems takes place as we’re always second guessing, adapting ourselves, excusing behaviour, yearning for the past version. Did it ever exist? Was it real or not? How can I get it back? If only he’d just see me for who I am… etc

I’ve learnt that anyone can fall in love. Even these avoidant masking men. Novelty, physical attraction, low pressure at the start can all feel very much like love, and in some kind of way is…

But life doesn’t stay like this, life is messy, when children come along, grief or illness strikes… and they just don’t have the relational capacity to orient around anyone but themselves.

Coming out the other side of my breakdown and divorce (I filed two weeks ago today 🥳 and felt so down but feel much more positive now), I’ve realised that DH cannot orient himself around anyone else but himself.

His routines are sacrosanct and any disturbance causes anxiety and aggression. He was honestly never cut out to be a dad. He probably didn’t know this to be fair and we’re all sold a fairytale of marriage and happily ever after. A family is the second biggest sign of success for a man. It’s not insignificant. So it’s fair to excuse him. I don’t think he regrets having them but had he had to do it alone, their lives would have been very different. I shudder to think about it. He would have outsourced everything, even relational love (is that even possible?!), and been very harsh on them, filling their heads with pessimism and nonsense high performance stuff.

But yes, for whatever reason, ND and a very hard upbringing set the stage for complete lack of any emotional relational development from a young age in DH.

It’s amazing as you put distance between yourself and the source of pain, how clear their deficits are and how much easier it is to see that this person could never have made me happy. All the masking in the world - I don’t want it anymore. I don’t want adaptions. I don’t want half arsing anything anymore. I either want it all or nothing. I’m stronger on my own than with him. All that mental headspace and nervous system oriented around him. And he never oriented around me, not once really, not even when it really mattered. So I was playing for two people… don’t burnout like I did ❤️‍🩹 get out while you’re still well enough to be you still. I wish I’d done it earlier. I left it at least 5 years too late. In reality I should have done it 3 years after we got married… things become clear on the other side. Thank you to all of you who have been part of this journey for me. I found these threads about 5 years ago. I realised then I was doomed but I couldn’t do it. But now I have.

Relationships are so bloody complicated. Add in the rejection sensitivity of adhd and I don’t think I really want any. This thread has really opened up my eyes to how masked people are, NT and ND. Is anyone actually honest anymore?? The relationship with yourself is the only one you really need I think.

@Mini2025 im really happy you’ve found your footing and relief on the other side 🎉🎉🎉

And YY about adapting, accommodating, excusing but somehow the spot light is never put on them too… Even if I think there’s always a part of us screaming ‘Enough! This is not fair, nor balanced, nor sustainable’

I am so thrilled for you @Mini2025 although this road has been so hard. I wish you every happiness in the future. Sending a massive hug.

Thank you @WindyW 🥰

its funny, I used to read these threads a lot. I was BlueTick back then. I’ve spent my time in the weeds of it so so so long.

My therapist says I learnt to endure hardship during my childhood and that’s why I didn’t recognise the prison I was living in. It was so familiar I just got on with it. I’d learnt to sacrifice my needs for others or that they didn’t matter, others always came before me. That’s how I learnt to orient around DH. It’s all I’ve ever known. But nothing is wasted if you learn from it, even at 51, hey, even at 91!

my therapist has clients in their 80s and 90s. She said we still want to understand and learn, some of us. And I want to be with someone who wants to grow and change or be with no one. I don’t want to grow and adapt for two people. It cost me my health. I don’t want to be with an ant stuck in amber, someone who can’t ever change and doesn’t want to.

im not through it all yet, DH still living at home but that awful questioning has reduced and I’m no longer asking myself to endure a shitty relationship that only made me happy in the first year…

So I’m grateful, despite all the illness and heartache and silencing of my own needs.

i never thought back then I’d be writing posts like these. That id be actually one of the ones divorcing!! But here I am, hopefully inspiring other younger versions of me to find their time and never give up hope.

second guessing, adapting ourselves, excusing behaviour, yearning for the past version. Did it ever exist? Was it real or not?

Yes it really is this.

Well done @Mini2025 !! You’ve come through it. I remember when I left someone said one of us getting out felt like a win for all!! Sending solidarity and strength! 🫂

@Mini2025 congratulations on choosing yourself!

I’ve had this conversation with my friend this morning over her empathy. She will empathise and try and friend people who have been awful to her because she feels sorry for them. Over empathising over self preservation is a real problem, especially for women. My two daughters will have a balance. Some women (via conditioning ) wear empathy like a badge of honour but end up getting walked all over.

@Mini2025 did you get a pink kettle? 😜😜

(Reference: when @BustyLaRoux left and settled in her new house, she got a nice pink kettle for herself)

I heard a speaker at a work event yesterday describe herself as a carer for her autistic partner, which was interesting. I supposed many people are unrecognised carers with with the mental effort, adjusting family life and schedules etc around their partners. Maybe we should recognise that more - it's not physical care effort, but takes its toll psychologically.

On that general theme - my mum's health is getting worse and worse, I think he last hip replacement has kicked off a bad ME relapse and I doesn't feel like she will ever really be well again. My dad (almost certainly on the spectrum) has difficulty coping so he gets depressed and frustrated, which creates more stress for my mum. My DH was suggesting he thinks counselling might exist for older people about basically accepting that situation where one or both of you is facing debilitating illness for the rest of your lives, but I can't see my dad giving that a go.

Oh, an ME relapse is brutal. Esp on the top of hip surgery requiring physio/exercise. There’s a strong incompatibility there 😢😢
Is she into the severe ME territory?