Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

I think that theory has been defended many times and tbh it makes sense to me.

Some advocates would say women/girls are socialised to mask more. And that’s also why girls don’t ‘present’ the same way than boys/men.

I believe our society is still patriarcal so men can get away with more.

I don’t think it has anything to do with each gender abilities though (just like it is with NTs). It’s just that one gender has been taught to scan the environment for clues (of upset, needing care etc etc) whereas the other lives assuming they don’t need to.

I know what you mean about they have problems but seldom seem to research what to do about it and what the solutions are? It's like, if something is making you miserable and there are ways to mitigate it, then find out how to mitigate it - don't, for example, keep telling everyone to stop making totally normal amounts of noise and leave rooms because you are very sensitive to it, they live here too! Like for years DH got angry every holiday because he was working in the lounge/kitchen area and I kept telling him he needed to sort out a proper wifi extension in the front of the house so he could work in our bedroom or the front room. He did it eventually and it was a game changer, but the answer was there from the start.

DH has started new job - finding it very tiring in the 'finding your feet' stage. I need to ask him tonight or tomorrow if I can just crack on with dealing with everything for DS' bedroom (other than clearing anything of DH's from cupboard) or if he really wants to be involved, considering we have very little time to make decisions on anything.

Oh yes, absolutely - it's all socialisation for sure. The 'penalty' for a girl/woman not fitting in socially is much higher.

@Echobelly is the new job going ok for your dh, apart from being more tired?

im assuming it’s half term too so less pressure on your ds re revisions etc too?

It's a bit early to say how job is going , but fingers crossed.

DS doesn't have immanent exams but DH is getting him to do a bit of maths every day but is managing to keep his cool.

Next week we have termly catch up with form teacher and I am already starting to get nervous about when we get the rest of DS' test results through. I mean, there's only 2 subjects we're waiting to hear on and they are the two he did genuinely appear to do work on over the holidays. My worries are twofold - that if his results in those are also disappointing then I don't know what that means for him if he can't get a good outcome even when he tries. Or, possibly even worse, that he gets an at least decent, maybe even good outcome in those two, and DH still decides to have a go and misses out on an opportunity to say 'Look how much better you can do when you revise' because he decides it's not good enough. I need to talk to him before then and say 'Look, can we agree what OK and good looks like so we can avoid a situation where he doesn't get any credit for where he put in the work'.

@Echobelly you're doing an amazing job of parenting. I really hope your DH eases off and your DS will have some good results for him. Wishing you so well.

Things ok here, been chatting to ChatGPT quite a lot, looking into family systems. Figuring out how to stop being the overfunctioner / caretaker. DH therapist thinks he has PDA which he seems to have accepted and we can talk about that now which is a but if a game-changer. Things make a lot more sense through this lens. It’s tragic to feel that loving relationships produce an intolerable expectation though, struggling through a lot of feelings around this. Hugs to all.

I think I understand it a little better now. Empathy is knowing what the other person needs not what you think they need. It’s knowing someone outside of you. Two children will never be the same and they won’t need what I need. My mum has no tools to see us as beings outside of her, she simply wasn’t born with it and never diagnosed. (She has now developed a level of superiority as if her words are the only words, if you don’t respond then you are the issue). She avoids all areas of life where empathy is needed because she must be aware internally that she struggles to relate.

As a child you adapt to your parents, you try and please and adapt to their version of you. Basically my mum wanted two copies (or should I say that’s the only child she could understand). She can’t understand me but instead of trying she just left me alone. My brother has adapted much better, although he has no emotions and can only do work. She talks very well of him and all he has achieved , I guess this is because it makes her feel better as a mother? I have suffered with the identity she gave me, but that has always been my issue.

I am less angry but I don’t think I can forgive her continuing attitude. If both of your children aren’t give the tools and the things they need to thrive as a parent then you have failed, whether one is financially very wealthy and successful or not. We as a family are either all winning or we have lost in my opinion.

I think there has been a lot of fear involved. Before there was understanding of ND it was adapt or die really for those higher functioning. They are passing this fear onto their children. Ignore your emotions and your needs to fit in. We don’t preach this as much now and we try and honour what needs children have. But then the world isn’t really very accommodating still.

This morning started badly but ended much better, I'm now out for most of the day.

DH was furious at DS for not having done something he thought he'd asked him to do, I managed to referee until we got to a point where there seemed to be agreement it was a misunderstanding and DH apologised... a turning point was when I very gingerly asked him to rephrase the accusatory tone of a question to DS, and he did (honestly it's always anyone's guess as to how he'll take things).

And we had a honest discussion about how DS has to find a way forward (with our help) with effective ways to revise because we do appreciate that remembering what he is taught is hard for him, so he will need lots of reinforcement. DH also said he understands that DS will not do well across the board at GCSE and that's ok, ie subjects like English literature will be exceptionally hard for him, so that was good to hear he understands.

I think the next thing really, as we have been promised more sessions with counsellor, is to talk to her about how DH can reframe his approach from 'him vs DS' to 'us all supporting DS'. Taking it all so personally doesn't help DS, makes DH and me less able to help DS and less effective at doing so. I'm not saying DH can't be frustrated and worried, but the way he directs it is the problem.

Why is he so angry? An angry man is never a good thing. My ex was always angry, it’s not a nice environment for anyone.

It's a couple of things - none of which make it OK of course.

One of definitely ADHD-related dysregulation - it is much better when he is on need but weekends (when he doesn't take them) and evenings, when they've worn off a bit can still be an issue.

Also, I've just been thinking, because he has a mother who I think always reacted to his differences with fury, and as though they were a slight towards her.

It’s just not ok. I had quite a few years, around 10 with an angry man. It is funny because my ex blamed his father for his anger but then he just behaved exactly the same way himself. You would think that they would realise the impact of their childhood and avoid repeating it but somehow they just do. I suppose a lot of people do. I can’t wrap my head around why you’d want to pass that trauma down.

Have name changed and finally found the courage to join this thread. Will save the details for another time. I'm the NT spouse. Husband and I have reached breaking point yet again. There is still lots of love between us but also resentment and distrust. Have any of you had marriage counselling/couples therapy and if so, did it make a difference?
I like to think I'm insightful and accommodating. I know where our issues lie and have made many suggestions on how to address them. We have talked ourselves silly, I have taken all his requests and suggestions on board, yet we keep coming back to the same place.
Classic example, I feel generally emotionally neglected. We have talked about this ad nauseam. He has asked me to communicate my needs more clearly. So I communicate them clearly (kindly and respectfully!). He feels attacked and like he's not enough
He gets angry/defensive, then pulls away. I need to then manage his feelings and help him through his shame. What I needed falls aside. I feel neglected. Cycle starts again.
Basically, I'm wondering what therapy could offer us if that's the route to take. Does it work for NT/ND couples?

I think he needs to try counselling alone @TiredPerrot because you’re likely flogging a dead horse if he can’t take responsibility for his own emotions. He needs to learn to regulate himself. It has to change, he can’t expect you to sacrifice your feelings every time he becomes dis-regulated. Is he aware of RSD (rejection sensitivity dysphoria)? It sounds like this could be t play, perhaps if he were to gain an understanding of what is happening he might cope better. But and it’s a big but he has to be willing to accept his behaviour needs to change and that he has to be able to give you support in turn.

Yes. If what he does if come back from his counselling sessions and drop into conversations, ‘well, the counsellor agreed with me that …’ and, ‘the counsellor said that you sound …’ (etc), then you won’t be any further forward. In fact it could entrench him in his current position.

I'm beginning to wonder if I should suggest individual counselling for DH with the specific aim of helping him reframe his feelings towards DS's struggles that I mention above - that might be the best approach.

He's doing group ADHD counselling at the moment but I think that's more on general coping strategies... though part of me is hoping they will do a session where members might talk about parental attitudes to their difficulties and just maybe if there are people there like DS who had school challenges that just might spell it out to him. Because I know from what I've read, time and again, people with ADHD talk about being told they are lazy, not listening in school, not trying etc. And they knew they were trying, they really were - but cogs didn't necessarily start turning, or they just couldn't hold on to what they were taught - and this sort of thing was the opposite of motivational or helpful.

Is there nothing available to teach people about acceptance? I don’t know what you would call it.

I do think acceptance is a hard thing to do. I have had to go extremely low contact my family as they do not accept my daughters ADHD. They believe she should be treated the same as everyone else, no accommodation as that’s just molly codling. Keeping her away from their mouths is the only way I know how, but I know in your case that’s not realistic. Not being accepted is a hard thing to carry as a child. For myself it’s left me with a feeling that I am less then because I can’t do the same as everyone else. It effects the way you feel towards yourself.

@TiredPerrot this is a huge issue for us also. I just could not get a conversation about my needs because even implied criticism triggered RSD and then DH dysregulation. A big step forward was me saying to DH that I think he has RSD and him actually listening. I think he was able to listen since he has a very skilled somatic therapist who is treating him with EMDR plus a mix of other techniques.

Now we can get somewhat into the conversation as RSD can be named. It is hard though. I have also had to try to address my anxious attachment. It’s not my responsibility that my DH is dysregulated and not my job to coach him through it. This separateness is very uncomfortable to be honest. I enjoy feeling an open reciprocity and it’s hard to police myself that I am not overstepping.

The other thing that happened is that DH therapist ‘diagnosed’ (insert appropriate word here) with PDA. Not sure if that rings any bells with you. The best explainers I found are from Megan Neff (Neurodivergent Insights) and Prof BerMed (adult guide to PDA most of it is viewable on their social media). I think a lot of us on this thread have partners with high autonomy traits or high avoidance. PDA is very paradoxical and unlocking these has been helpful.

It’s all just so effortful though and I’m just tired now. I just want to have some fun / joy and not be worrying about any of this. Anyway not sure if those random thoughts have helped (!) just know that you are not alone.

@TiredPerrot from people experiences on here, it seems quite clear than finding an appropriate therapist when ND is involved is even harder than to find a good counsellor.

im not trying to discourage you at all there, quite the opposite. But my own experience says that your run of the mill therapist is likely going to ‘side’ with him and expects you to do ALL the accommodations, with little responsibility put on him.
Youll need someone who has extensive knowledge of ND, maybe someone who is ND themselves. So he gets he has a part to okay there too.

@WindyW YY about needing to change ourselves too. I totally get missing the automatic reciprocity and being able to help and support dh. I’ve had to kearn (the hard way) that doing that was actually scaffolding him and stopping from learning from his mistakes. Esp as he is only learning by making mistakes, feeling how uncomfortable that feels and then changing his behaviour….

@WindyW how do you deal with PDA?
im finding that, apart from letting dh do as he pleases, not much else works.
Yet doing that still causes friction becayse he then ends up overriding my own need for autonomy…..

I would absolutely echo this 100%!

Counsellors know only what they’re told. They are not a fly on the wall. They do not have cameras set up to follow the client round and determine what is real and what is perception.

This is the difficulty. This is how I understand things:

When an interaction happens there is the actioner and there is the perceiver. The perceiver brings all their baggage (their history, their pain, their resentment, their neurodivergence and their state of mind in that moment). Their lens basically. They cannot see the action other than through their lens. Most people are not emotionally aware enough to look at their own lens objectively so most people are not even aware they have a lens! They simply perceive the action and assume this has absolute veracity. Perception creates a feeling and the feeling means they interpret the action according to the feeling. So they apply an assumption about the behaviour of the actioner.

In other words - I feel criticised, therefore my partner IS criticising me.

What the counsellor has no way of knowing is whether the partner (who is not able to represent themselves in the counselling sessions) is actually a critical person, or whether the client sees criticism all the time.

@SpecialMangeTout3 just by separating every task really. Each doing our own thing and only coming together for crucial decisions. It feels quite depressing to do this. As sharing is the only way I know how to build emotional intimacy. But then learning more about PDA makes it clear that this works perfectly for DH, as even expectations are demands? How are you dealing with things?

I also echo exactly what you describe. How my feelings would act as a trigger for my ex. If I dared to feel upset or annoyed, he would see that as criticism and would then have a huge emotional reaction (usually anger) which would be far bigger than my original emotion. And all of a sudden we were both now having to deal with his big emotion rather than mine. It meant never being able to say “this makes me upset” because he would see that as criticism and he would become furious so of course I swallowed my emotions so as not to upset him.

One of the final nails in our coffin was after a horrendous episode where he has been beyond awful to me. (Think: screaming at me that I am a fucking cunt several times and then leaving me locked out of our apartment). As we were on holiday I decided not to mention how upset I was as I didn’t trust myself to speak calmly. I pretended it was fine. After a couple of days I felt able to say “we should talk about what happened the other day. I’m actually feeling really upset about it”. He looked at me and said “well so am I!!!!!” Everything was always about his emotions. Mine were just triggers for his. I wasn’t allowed emotions in my own right.

We had tried couples counselling before this, but all he did was make the focus how I needed to change my tone, my words, my timing. It was all about me fixing myself to fix the relationship. His reactions were never the focus. Any discussion about him flying into a rage was always met with “well I felt attacked” and then the counsellor would try and work on how to use language so our partner doesn’t feel attacked. And that’s probably fine for “normal” couples where abuse isn’t present. But actually the focus needed to be on him and his rage and his perception that he was always being criticised.

But as I said before, the counsellor isn’t a fly on the wall. If one partner says “she’s always finding fault but she never accepts any wrong doing or takes accountability” it’s impossible to respond back with “no that isn’t true” as it just feeds into the narrative that she doesn’t take any accountability.

Parallel lives has been my answer. And yes that means no emotional intimacy (but then there wasn’t any before so 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️)

It makes things much more smooth. Less clash. Less hurt on my side (because you don’t get hurt when you don’t expect something)

I read a bit around PDA from Neff pov. It annoyed me tbh. It felt like the NT is expected to parent the ND, make it low demand etc… whilst grieving for the things you’d never get. It’s very ND positive etc…. but little about acknowledging the NT needs and how the ND should take responsibility too (and be held responsible).

Im struggling with the fact theres still a clear power imbalance (as in life still revolve around dh needs) and it has some clear impact on my relationship to my adult dcs. And, having a disability myself, not having my own needs clearly acknowledged and prioritised too is hard. Tbf dh has been much better in the last 6 months or so. But I’m not sure I’ll ever get over the resentment or the hurt.