Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

I think there are different kinds of incompatibility in a relationship. One where there are just 2 people with different values and in another relationship the person would be fine. Or ones that they can work on to
align more. I think most relationships have incompatibility in areas. My partner wasn’t great with our child as a baby, he wouldn’t have been able to deal with if the baby was warm or cold. But he supported me whilst I took charge. He is however brilliant now they are 3. He is happy to sit whilst she asks 4,000 questions and answers them all without being inpatient.

Then there is incompatibility with just relationships in general. Someone people are just too singular and can’t do a partnership. Or too traumatised. My ex for example was too paranoid to have a relationship with. My brother and mum are incredibly selfish and the only reason this works is because they both picked younger partners, late teens when met who are now submissive. Had they have met older partners with life experience I suspect it would be a different outcome.

That's a great point, it's a critical difference!

My partner and I had a couples therapy session this morning with a psychologist specialising in ASD, and I was trying to be balanced to make it fair, whereas he was only talking about his own perspective. So of course the therapist didn't really take my concerns seriously and now my partner doesn't either.

For context, my partner's dad uses what I call physical abuse to "discipline" his grandchildren, and my partner refuses to acknowledge that's not ok, let alone willing to one day intervene to make sure his dad doesn't hit our daughter. I framed it to the psychologist that it especially triggers me because of "neglect" and sexual abuse I experienced as a child, so of course now I'm seen as being triggered and overly worrying about a problem with his dad that "isn't there"/I'm being unreasonable, she thinks I should get more EMDR. Whereas I also objectively fundamentally disagree with anyone hitting our child and will not allow it, but now my partner has the convenient excuse to dismiss my worries as "me being triggered"

What a load of rubbish. I believe our triggers are often where we need our boundaries. In your case the triggers are really issues that need addressing. If anyone touched my children it would be the last time they saw them! You aren’t triggered into hiding in the corner for the past version of you, you are triggered for the future version of your children. That is very different. It would be the end of my relationship if my partner did not intervene. These are very different values to not knowing if a child is warm enough.

Im sorry but in the wrong relationship we are not ourselves and we do tend to live in hyper vigilance and triggers. It’s not you it’s that you’ve picked an environment similar to the one that hurt you in the first place.

That therapist needs reporting.

Thanks guys, I agree and already told my boyfriend that if he ever hits our child that we will leave and he won't see her alone again, amd same for anyone else who hits her. And I honestly do think that my boyfriend wouldn't hit her anyway, he doesn't have a violent bone in his body. It's just his dad.

But since my boyfriend is now hyperfixated on the idea for us to move closer to his family, partly in order "to have their support" to look after her, it's a real problem that he won't stand up to his dad, and my worry about it is blocking any productive conversation about where to live - I can't get past the alarm bells to think rationally.

Totally agree about choosing a similar environment to the one we grew up in - looking back, I think part of the reason I couod "understand" my boyfriend right from when we first met, is because he also experienced abuse a difficult childhood. But he won't acknowledge it as abuse, that'd be much too scary for him - instead he praises his father to a ridiculous level, sees him as a saint and no bad word can ever be said about him. Totally black and white thinking

I don’t think this is really down to the ASD, it sounds much more like conditioning. It is human nature to side with the abuser because it’s often the safest position to take as a child. You either with them or against them. Against could lead to rejection and we were pre programmed to connect at any cost. Which is why firm boundaries need to be in place as boundaries start to blur as we seek connection over rejection and conflict.

I think perhaps the word “trigger” has been an unhelpful distraction from the actual issue. (I’m not blaming you at all though!)

Essentially what you’re saying is “this behaviour is unacceptable. I will not tolerate or condone physical chastisement of our DC”. That is a simple fact. It is a fairly universal stance, to be fair. It isn’t up for debate. It’s non negotiable and would be for most people.

Unfortunately the word “trigger” has caused your DP and the therapist (who needs shooting by the way) to get sidetracked by your emotional response to the behaviour (physical chastisement). That’s not helpful, because now they’ve put the onus on you to examine and treat your emotional response (advised to have more EMDR therapy) instead of dealing with the actual issue!

And whilst it is arguably beneficial to explore our emotional responses to things (maybe you should seek therapeutic support, that is up to you to decide ), it’s not the issue here. The issue isn’t how you feel about the behaviour of your FIL. The issue is how you feel about your DP not backing you on this.

Perhaps you and DP have different values. As @Theydontwantme says, it’s often OK to have different values in a relationship, but sometimes there is such a fundamental issue - agreeing or not on physical chastisement - that you have to find a way to come to an agreed position. All this therapist has done is make out like you need some support for being triggered! That’s not the point. What an idiot the therapist is to get so sidetracked!

It really never ceases to amaze me how often on these threads the supposed ASD specialist therapist puts the onus on the non ASD partner to compromise, to do the work, to accept responsibility. Is it just laziness by the therapist? Are they daunted by the idea of actually supporting the ASD partner to make changes and step up when needed? Rarely have I heard someone say “our therapist was excellent and told my ASD partner in no uncertain terms their behaviour needed to change if they wanted to stay in the relationship”. All I ever hear is how the therapist validated the behaviour of the ASD partner and tried to make the non ASD partner do the work! Doesn’t seem like your therapist was any better!!

Wow, really shocked by that @mcrlover. I thought a therapist would also see violence as a red line. I’d be 100% of the same opinion as you.

I agree with @BustyLaRoux that the word trigger seems to have pushed the conversation in the wrong direction.

@mcrlover But I’m also going to say, please stop trying to be understanding, putting both sides forward etc….
Your DP sees that as confirmation that he is right. He doesn’t hear the second part that is really YOUR view of the situation. (And the counsellor isn’t helping either)

Also seeing the situation re his father, I wouldn’t move close to them. That would be a red line for me. Not when you clearly cant trust his dad. And you can’t trust him to protect your dc either.

It’s text book narcissistic rhetoric to blame the emotional response rather then the preceding behaviour.

Completely agree with this.

DS's room is finally getting redecorated (last room in the house not to have been redone) as the built in storage isn't working and is falling apart, and I want it done before GCSEs. Decorators are free next week, so we don't have much warning to decant a bunch of (non DS) stuff that has been stored in there.

DH has taken DS out for the day before he starts job tomorrow - I am taking opportunity in between working (and will while I'm off work later this week) to remove a bunch of storage stuff that he won't remember is there, but if he does he might ask to 'just check what we might want to keep', which he will never do, so I'm just doing it myself in case. Mostly it's kids' primary school workbooks - I'm keeping art and English because those are cute and it might be funny to look at, but I'm recycling the rest. I suspect he would be fine with this, but I don't want to risk 'I just want to check before you throw anything out'...

I've found random shit MIL has given to us - like a small bag with a small, broken handbag and hairband, presumably for oldest, and a load of blank very 1980s cards and envelopes, which I have just chucked, as I had no idea we even had that. There's a whole bag from her of DH and BIL's old kid-sized clothes we never even got out for DS, so we need to decide what to do with that.

I also have a bag I have reluctantly kept of clothes MIL bought for our kids because I know she would expect us to keep them and will remember all of them. TBH, now it looks unlikely SIL will ever be having kids I doubt there's any reason they'll come out again in her lifetime, so maybe we should review keeping them!

It seems a bit like DH is leaving decorating decisions to me (thankfully) given time constraints and him starting work. It's good having short notice as it forces decisions and he can't fuss too much about the perfect wardrobe combo.

@EchobellyIf there’s anything synthetic or elasticated in the clothes bags they’ve probably had it. Elastic goes off remarkably quick. I’d sort the lot and check which charity shops local to you take rags (our RSPCA one does) then dispose of the lot. Then donate the good, the bad and the ugly! You can’t continually hang onto things on the never never.

There's a couple of elasticated things where that's gone. It's mostly shirts and t-shirts. I might suggest we give it all to the asylum seeker drop-in our synagogue runs, they always need kids stuff and the things like shirts might be appreciated by some of the clients from African countries who like to have smart clothes for their children for church.

The trickier bit will be there is some other stuff in storage generally that is DH's and he's a bit of a hoarder - I absolutely wouldn't throw away anything like that without his input, even though he probably has no idea we have it. I might suggest we shove in the loft space for now and maybe when I redo the spare room/office put it high level storage for that kind of thing

So my STBXH has just been diagnosed with ADHD as well as ASD. This makes for the same diagnosis as I received three years ago. My feelings are SO mixed. I am glad for him to have this increased clarity for himself but it also weirdly hurts. I guess it feels like another example of male privilege in a way... it's "why he's so forgetful" (and I assume why he's never managed actual empathy for me 🙄). But with the same diagnoses I have had to be the empathetic figure for our young kids, and have had to remember absolutely everything to do with the kids / daily life.

I know no one owns a diagnosis and everyone's profiles are different but dang are my feelings complicated.

@DamageLimitation101 I really feel for you. It’s hard when you’re trying to meet your own struggles/needs etc and then someone comes along and says ah but my needs now trump yours. I had a moment when my DH was given his ADHD diagnosis and it felt like the whole world was revolving around it and because I was NT I couldn’t be allowed to have any struggles and all the podcasts and articles coming out were making me feel like I was a shit human for being NT because we’re all evil monsters by dint of just being NT because we can’t understand the ND struggles, despite the fact I’ve been advocating for my son for 12+ years at that point and have given up work so we can Home Ed. It just felt relentless.
Thankfully that’s all calmed down now although the term neuro-spicy still makes me want to punch someone.
Sorry mini pity fest there, can you tell it still bugs me 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️.
You are allowed to be frustrated and annoyed because it feels like he gets to use the diagnosis as a get out clause whilst you still functioned and made sure your kids lives functioned and handled your own shit. So it feels deeply unfair as it probably makes you feel like he’s been given a get out of jail free card.
My DH had a few days to himself in a hotel a while after his DX, he was muttering about moving out, for a while, whilst he sorted himself out. I lost my shit at him at one point as I stated I would never even have that option to walk away from our son and family life. He got very defensive but it mentally just isn’t an option to me and he had that luxury.
So be angry and frustrated and all the negatives, you can be happy for him to have found some understanding but it doesn’t take away from your struggles and the amount of hard work you’ve had to undertake. Hugs (if they’re your thing!) 🙂

My ex partner was diagnosed with ADHD after I was. He was an abusive twat. He uses this now as an excuse for his temper and behaviour. I have never ever lost my temper, hurt or swore at anyone. I don’t know if maybe females with ADHD or ASD perhaps naturally have more empathy (I could be totally wrong). He had absolutely no comprehension of what his behaviour did to others. I suspect he had developed something else other than the ADHD along the way.

I share my oldest child with him. My oldest has been diagnosed ADHD and he is trying to use it as a way of getting in with her. What he actually wants is to control her. He tries to dictate what she wears, eats, where she goes, who her friends are etc etc, he is in my opinion paranoid. It’s just a neurotype, but doesn’t stop someone being shit.

Thanks, hugs are a good thing. 🙂 I think there's an element of frustration in that things like his sensory overwhelm etc (which I'm sure factored into his ASD diagnosis) have been a problem for years and he has never proactively taken steps to deal with it e.g. by trying different ear defenders and so on. He just gets overwhelmed and shouts at the kids or leaves the room whilst covering his ears and kind if implying it's their fault (which feels to me like quite a "dramatic" way to leave a challenging situation). So it's sort of... ok great but you don't need a diagnosis, you need techniques for handling the challenges and does a diagnosis help the lack of proactivity on his part?! (I also have problems with sensory overwhelm. I researched earplugs and have tried several and settled on Flares).

Thanks for this, and sorry things are so hard with your ex and your eldest.

I was thinking about the empathy thing earlier today... I wonder whether it's gendered socialisation kind of pushing the autistic male/female to different extremes. I'd say as an autistic female that I've always been aware of not fully understanding social cues / what I'm "supposed" to do or so and so have always focussed very much on being attentive/attuned to what people are feeling, or what I perceived them to be feeling. And that's maybe because as a female you are socialised to be good at interacting with people / pleasing and polite etc. Whereas I think (speaking very broadly) autistic men tend to go the other way, perhaps because society lets men be "eccentric" in a way it doesn't let women, and withdraw from any connection with other people's emotions. 🤔 This is by no means a full or coherent theory but it's sort of what's been circling in my mind.

Totally feel you @DamageLimitation101, my DH and I are both ASD/ he also ADD, but while his diagnosis is often used as an excuse to show little empathy/ refusal to say "I love you" etc, I've gone the other direction trying to show as much empathy and kindness as possible.

Don't know if it's because ASD in women actually manifests with more natural empathy because of some natural genetic difference, or if it's because that's what society expects of women and not of men. Whatever the reason it looks like it's pretty common, and feels sooooo unfair. Even if empathy comes harder for some men with ASD, it shouldn't be an excuse to not be constantly trying to be there emotionally for your partner and kids! Totally agree it feels like male privilege sometimes argh. Sending you a hug

Can I just pick your brain a little as an asd female. When you say you try and show as much empathy as possible is this because you don’t feel it or because you feel it loads but are unsure when and where to place it? I always struggle with understanding the empathy issue. In my life the female with ASD has very little empathy and just avoids and disappears when it’s obvious (to me) that’s it’s a time to be present.

I find empathy quite a challenging thing to understand. I hear repeatedly that ND people lack empathy. But in my experience of myself and other ND people in my life they are more empathetic then NT people. I find the NT world to be very non empathetic place. Many families push for achievements and being productive often leaving behind other members. I hear often if I can why can’t you, I mask heavily because of this. My brother who is financially very secure would not help me as he has put it “you had the same options as me”, you made your bed etc…but I didn’t have the same options.

I think there are two sides to the empathy question.

First, most modern societies are badgering pressure cookers. Push push push, pressure. Thou shalt think this, thou shalt feel that. They'll take any stick they can beat you with. Empathy is just another one they can use. You must feel such and such way. Essentially, if somebody stubs their toe, you are supposed to feel the pain. If someone's house burns down, you have to feel as if it was your house. That's just so wrong. That's not empathy. How does that help, if you tell me a sad story and I start to sob and moan and cry in your stead? Let alone if we are discussing a third person we don't even know.

If anything, empathy is holding still and not heaping more shit onto a person's struggles (including your own). Empathy is not telling anyone how they ought to feel, but asking them how they actually feel. Including yourself. Empathy is not pushing a solution, or giving a gift they didn't ask for. Empathy is asking "What do you need right now?" and trying your hardest to hear the answer.

Some people are better at assessing what a person needs (including themselves), and the fewer questions you need to ask to do the right thing for the person, the better you are at taking their perspective, i.e. the more empathy you have. You need both hemispheres to assess all sides of a situation. You can look at something this or that way, if it were me I would want this, but knowing how they are I think they would need that, and then all other kinds of learning, implicit and explicit, that influence your behavior in how you relate to others.

If your brain hemispheres don't cooperate well, either because you're dominant in the left one (autism) or the because remote control switches erratically between the two (adhd) or because you're dominant in the right one (dyspraxia), then yes, seeing all sides of a situation could be affected. (Nevermind front-to-back and top-to-bottom brain imbalances, etc etc... )

I think it depends a LOT on what sort of empathy you’re talking about.

Showing interest in other people life and emotions? That’s one thing. And something that can be learnt quite easily. Active listening is a skill like any other, one NT often have to learn too btw.

The you have empathy as feeling the other person feelings. One person breaks down in front you, crying after the death of a loved one. And you suddenly feel very sad, crying with them. That’s empathy too and I’ve seen many people on the spectrum doing that. I dint think ND people are struggling there more than NT.

And then you have empathy as in being able to put yourself in someone else shoes. And that’s an area where people ASC are struggling (in its the criteria of ASC after all). That’s why people like dh cannot learn until they experience stuff themselves. So many times, I’ve explained to dh that xyz makes me feel sad/hurt/unacceptable and he doesn’t get it. Regardless of how I explain. That is until he is experiencing it himself agd THEN, it’s clear. No explanation needed anymore, it’s all taken on board. When it’s something he will never be able to experience himself? It can take many years until the penny drops.

And then you have the issue if facial expression and how they're interpretated (many autistic people will be told they lack empathy because their facial expression isnt what NT would expect).

I feel that until you define clearly what is meant by 'empathy' its impossible to say whether people on the spectrum lack empathy or not.

Yes I think you’re really onto something there about the different types of empathy. My dad will cry watching the charity famine adverts on TV, but as for asking him to understand what it’s like for someone to feel something different to him, you may as well talk to a shoe! There is absolutely nothing there.