Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

Oh gosh how awful. The rigid thinking. The refusal to see or even entertain a different point of view. The blame. The lack of self reflection. Its impossible. Your poor DS. No wonder he has struggled when his father is like this. And seemingly there is nothing you can do to make your DH see the damage he is doing. Instead he will just blame everyone else.

I distinctly remember a heated conversation with exDP in the early days. His DS was really struggling and had begun to refuse to complete work. Both parents were in turmoil as DS was falling further and further behind. The more behind he got, the more he felt like a failure. So the more he would refuse to do any work. ExDP and his ex had been desperately forcing him to do “home learning” but it was awful to watch. The DS would lie on the floor and just be shouted at and refuse. Mum would beg and wheedle and promise treats. EzDP would shout and threaten. I remember watching this as an observer and thinking this is awful!

Ex DP once shouted at me that he had to take this approach as he was “the only one who can get him to complete anything at all. He won’t do it for anyone else!!!” (This was shouted at me when I questioned what he was doing). I calmly replied “yes, but at what cost?”

Fair play to exDP, that shut him up and he never took that approach again. I think, unlike your DH, the penny finally dropped. So what if he got him to do some work? Is that really the most important thing? Is shouting at and threatening him actually going to make things better? He might win the battle, but he will lose the war, because the cost of this approach is that the child will suffer emotionally and probably for the rest of his life. This isn’t someone being a bit bone idle and needing a good kick up the arse!

Your DS needs emotional support, not punitive measures. He needs kindness and understanding and encouragement. Your DH’s approach is damaging his son. And all he can do is blame you. Well done for being your DS’s avid supporter. I don’t know how you get DH to agree to back off. He sounds intolerable.

Thanks @BustyLaRoux . I think that concept of 'winning the battle and losing the war' is a good one and I will raise that with him. It's a bit of a miracle DS has kept his self esteem and hasn't dug his heels in and given up on learning, which is what I've warned DH about. Though he's only 14, there's still time for him to go 'Fuck this, if you say I'm not trying despite everything, I might as well give up.'

DH tried to hear DS out and he did to some extent, but he also tried to brush off DS's feelings in some way and he doesn't understand you can't do that. Like 'DS can't be scared of me, he can't not like being at home because I don't see him making efforts not to be around' That's not how feelings work! They don't lean in to literal actions always!

DH's anger is getting much better on the medication, but he's acting as everyone should now move on and should be able to go 'He only shouted at me because of the ADHD, I shouldn't take it to heart'. Which again, is not how feeling work. The damage and the fear is done.

Also DH is expecting everyone to make allowances for his ADHD symptoms, while not making any allowances for those of DS - that it is hard for him to remember things and to recall them when he needs to. That it's hard to get started on open-ended work.

I think Echo it needs to be said to DH why does DS have to be perfect and you don’t, why do you expect us to forgive your past mistakes but you won’t let things go with him. Why are you holding your son, who you claim to love, to some mythical higher standard of perfection and to what end, because if it carries on this way it will ultimately destroy his confidence and his love for you. All he thinks you care about is his academic ability, he will believe that is all you value and that you do not love him for who he is. That you only view him as a status symbol and that you will abandon him and not love him if he doesn’t give you the grades you want.
I mean I know thats all very melodramatic but your DH doesn’t seem very good at the bleeding obvious so a bit of hyperbole might be in order! 😁

So hypocritical and frustrating. The hypocrisy was one of the things that got to me the most when I was with DP. I’d be like “how can you not see this? How can you complain about this when you’re the worst culprit?!” I feel your pain! It’s just maddening. X

I think medication only works so far, like slowing down the response and allowing the brain a minute to think before reacting etc. But It can’t turn him into a different person. I would find this absolutely intolerable, low empathy, low insight and no perspective taking. He is how he is is he not and at this age it’s pretty stuck. Not being able to be aware that you are damaging the people around you is a pretty bad state to be in.

@Pashazade ive had a few discussions with dh going along those lines (you expect xyz from this person but you don’t do it yourself etc…).
The penny has rarely dropped that way.
Maybe because, as highlighted a few posts before, he is one that needs to get the experience himself to actually realise how hard/painful something is.

It might be helpful for @Echobelly if her dh has been shouted at for being lazy as a teen and maybe she can remind him how awful it feels??

Is this not enabling behaviour territory? It’s not acceptable to have any of this behaviour directed towards children. ASD or not, some of the behaviour looks a little blurry on the abuse side. If someone has such little self awareness we as the other parent have to be very firm in our boundaries so they don’t get blurred. I wonder if sometimes behaviour is being enabled because of the label.

When I look back at my childhood I always used to say “well they do love me so it’s ok”. I was fed and clothed and took out and did well at school. But the normalised behaviour ended up having a massive effect on me. I don’t care anymore it if was the ASD or some other thing, a lot of these behaviours are not ok for children. My dad used to say it’s just your mum, you know what she’s like. Having to hear this for 18 years before I eventually left and never returned was traumatic. Then I entered the world undiagnosed, it was hard. I blame them both. To this day my home is and has never been a place of safety. It was somewhere to get away from because of how I was made to feel inside of it.

That's the thing - I don't want to say to either kids 'Well that's just your dad don't read too much into it' it's not a precedent to set.

No it’s not. I just wanted to say that a home is meant to be a safe space, especially for ND children. Somewhere they can be themselves, no eggshells etc. For myself it was just another unsafe place and it’s stopped me from wanting to be in it even as an adult. Unfortunately that meant I didn’t see much of my dad even though it was my mum who was the real problem. He is making their safe space unsafe with his behaviour.

It’s been sad over the years. Most of my friends go back to their family homes for Christmas, it’s a source of positive memories. This may not be true in your case.

I think you’re right. But I think it’s always been this way even before an awareness of ASD/ND. Nowadays perhaps when there is a diagnosis,
people/we say “oh but they can’t help it/disability” but certainly even before that it was, as you say “oh that’s just so and so is. You know what they’re like!” The behaviour is and always has been enabled and excused.

I do feel there is now a tendency from ASD supporters, including many counsellors, to say we need to make allowances because it’s a disability, which is borderline saying excuse/ignore abusive behaviour. I’ve read on here some terrible things counsellors have said to partners about being more tolerant and trying harder to meet or understand the ASD partner’s needs.

Being shouted at, being shut down and always told you’re just wrong/your way is wrong, not ever being listened to, not allowed an opinion, being blamed all the time, emotional shut down manifesting as silent treatment, flying into a rage - this is abusive behaviour and we should never tolerate this.

Without counselling (because we tried that and it didn’t really help) I was able to get my exDP to recognise a lot of his behaviours. He did begin to understand it’s not OK to shut down someone else’s pov just because you don’t agree with them. He did start to see that another pov might be worth listening to and even entertain the possibility he might be wrong!!! He got better at giving people the benefit of the doubt. Which was huge! It obviously went against his natural instinct, but he learnt to try and be more open to other views.

Having said that, although he made a lot of changes, it wasn’t enough. I am happy being friends but I do not want to share a living space with him and I am eternally grateful we never had children together. His views on parenting are at complete odds with mine. I don’t know how one successfully parents with someone like that.

I don’t think you can successfully parent unless your boundaries become so errored over time, it would just be constant conflict otherwise. I think that is what happens an awful lot, in order to keep peace we let a lot slide but the damage this does to children is huge. It’s imperative to teach a child about their emotions, how to regulate them, how to honour them, how to live a life harmoniously with them.

In my own case both my parents put little value on emotions. My brother seems to have had an emotional lobotomy and functions purely on logic but has huge issues with hoarding and overworking. Me it gave me identity issues. I’ve lived a life on their terms and got myself into a mess ignoring my feelings. My home is very different to my family home. I go with how my children feel, I want them to have a life where they are fulfilled and content not just running on a motor.

With my exDP, autonomy was everything to him. He firmly believed his DC should have complete autonomy. I think he sees his DC as an extension of himself. Especially his DS who is very like him.

This caused real problems for a number of reasons: what about when they wanted different things? One wants x but the other wants y. Then what? (usually his DS gets his own way and his DD has learnt her needs are less important).

His DD is also quite eager to please and generally happy to go with whatever. This angers exDP and he would get animated and demand she make her wishes known. He couldn’t seem to accept that she’s happy to go with the flow most of the time. He felt she just wasn’t speaking up and would get angry. But often when she did speak up, her horrible brother would oppose what she wanted or ridicule her. ExDP always criticises her for not being more like him and his DS. He even says to her “why can’t you be more like Simon??!” He thinks demanding what you want is normal and thinks his DC should do the same as him (unless they happen to disagree with him of course and then he will shout at them!).

His DS is now so accustomed to getting his own way, that he clashes with his mother on pretty much everything. He thinks he should dictate how her house is run and should have an equal say to his mother. If she doesn’t do what he wants then he emotionally blackmails and bullies her. ExDP encourages this (a) because he sees nothing wrong with having complete autonomy (in fact he seems to think children’s needs should trump adults’ every time) and (b) because he hates his ex with vitriolic fury and loves nothing more than to encourage discord in her household.

When his DD is happy to go along with whatever her mum wants, he shouts at her that she’s not being true to herself and should stand up to her mother and demand x and y. He doesn’t understand that having grown up around conflict, his DD’s presiding need is to avoid conflict because she hates it and finds it upsetting. But because he and his DS actively seek it out, he cannot understand that DD is different. He thinks she is weak so he shouts at her. It is awful. She often calls me in tears not knowing what to do. I have to step in and tell him to stop being an asshole.

I can’t imagine having to coparent with him. It caused such a conflict between him and his ex when they were together and continues to years later.

When we lived together and had a blended family it caused huge problems because our DC were treated so differently. His got to do whatever they wanted but he was also huge on discipline and expected all the DC to obey his every word. He would be furious if they questioned a directive or if he had to ask twice! My DC just thought he was a dickhead, but his DC seem genuinely fearful and will obey without question. He has a thing where if he has to repeat himself he shouts “SECOND TIME!!!” at the person. Including me! He would shout this at me if he had to repeat himself. (How dare he speak to another human like that!)

My DC do not expect to be consulted about everything. If I said “we’re going on holiday here” they would be grateful and think how lovely to be taken on holiday/don’t care where. His DC would have to be asked their opinion before we could book anything. Consequently when their mum would book a holiday to somewhere perfectly fine, they would complain and say they don’t want go/hadn’t been consulted. DS has refused to go on trips which she’s booked as he felt they didn’t align to his wishes!!!! Honestly, you couldn’t make it up!!

He has raised one child who is afraid to say boo to a goose and will likely put up with awful behaviour from men because she hates conflict so much. And another who expects to do/get what he wants and is used to emotional manipulation and bullying to ensure he gets it. It was like watching a slow car crash and I am so thankful we got away.

@BustyLaRoux I do hope you can stay in your “step daughter’s” life. She certainly needs someone balanced and to help her find her own voice as she gets older.

Interesting how different children react differently to being raised by an angry autistic parent. As I describe above, exDP’s children have responded very differently. They are similar insofar as they both adore their dad and crave his attention, but they are both anxious about displeasing him. As I say I think his DD is likely to accept abusive relationships as her norm when she is older. And I think his DS will become an abusive partner already abuses his mother.

For me and my brother, we both reacted very differently as children. He was quiet and compliant (more like my mum) and I was used to conflict, I stood my ground and would approach everything ready for a fight. As adults we have both moved to a more middle ground. Actually we are both quite similar in temperament now. We both just want a peaceful life!

I see my niece and she is very prone to upset (SIL is autistic). Niece cannot bear any kind of conflict and gets tearful at the many arguments DB and SIL have. Usually DB is trying to avoid conflict, but SIL kind of makes that impossible because she will create conflict out of anything and seems to be permanently looking for a fight. (Literally in some cases, as she has been known to have actual physical fights with strangers!!)

I do think the damage done to children being parented with parents like this is immeasurable (I certainly don’t mean all autistic parents. My good friend is autistic and mum to 2 boys and she is absolutely wonderful! Patient and understanding. She is very self aware and works really hard. I cannot fault her). If you have an autistic parent who has a need for autonomy, control, is always right, has a standard emotional setting: anger, then the children will likely never fare well. I am watching it play out with my niece and my exDP’s kids and although they all respond in different ways, the damage is also plain to see.

I think it’s the awareness that makes all the difference. You can’t have autonomy from your children. You can’t be connected and disconnected at the same time, it just makes a mess of them. It must be hard when you don’t know your own condition. When you can’t fully see a person in all their complexity and what they need. It’s all too easy to starve certain parts and over feed other parts unknowingly . People need to have a balance within themselves.

Yes very much so. She and my DD are very close still. She comes for sleepovers at the weekend sometimes which is nice, though I worry because poor thing is very clingy with me. I am worried about her.

I’ve invited her for Xmas this year as Xmas just gone was horrible for her. ExDP allowed his DS to dictate the day. Santa presents got forgotten about because the DS wanted to sleep in until 11:30am (and was allowed to!) Ex DP focused only on his special interest (preparing food while getting pissed) and just spent all day in the kitchen doing that while chatting with his DS and nephew. DD was left to her own devices. She rang me in the evening crying and saying how shit it was! Typically when she got a bit upset exDP just got annoyed with her and said he can’t be expected to know what she wants as he isn’t a mind reader and he’s sorry (said very sarcastically) if not everything is to her liking etc etc. As usual he completely contradicts himself. Half the time he’s annoyed with her for not speaking her mind, but when she does he gets angry and says she can’t have everything her way!!! His DS is a carbon copy of him so when his DS speaks his mind, exDP is usually in alignment and thinks it’s a great idea. But DD is a very different child. When DD eventually does pipe up her horrible DB belittles her and exDP just gets annoyed because it doesn’t fit in with his plans. That poor child can’t do anything right.

So yeah, I invited her to come to us on Xmas eve and just stay over and have a proper Xmas with me and my DC and my relatives. DP agreed. She is delighted!

That is heart breaking. Well done for saving this year’s Xmas!

That's an interesting point, I'd assumed that explaining "your dad is autistic so" and then explaining the reason why he does certain things/what he finds difficult and why, might help reduce some of the damage/impact on a kid. Do you think that wouldn't help? Maybe it would amount to enabling the behaviour? What do you think a better alternative would be?

Coz also I read that having an argument with the partner in front of the kids would also make the child feel unsafe (unsurprisingly). There doesn't seem to be a "right"/"healthy" way to minimise the damage from a parent with ASD, is there? Besides restricting contact, which of course would cause all sorts of emotional turmoil too!

A safe home I suppose but that’s probably not always possible having 2 homes. Never feeling safe or always having to monitor yourself in your home is hard (for the parent also). It’s draining constantly having to monitor the other parent. It makes you very hyper vigilant. The behaviour is not ok though so I don’t know how you’d deal with it. There is no way I could have approached my own parent. My method was to try and become like them so that I could try and squeeze some love out. I’m not an extension so it didn’t work. I am now an “other”, a bit weird. I think they can only love what they see in themselves, it’s very rigid.

Thanks for sharing. I'm so sorry to hear this, it's so unfair not being seen and loved for you, as you are. By your parent of all people. Can totally see how it makes you try to become like the parent in order to be acknowledged/loved :(

I'm definitely noticing feeling hypervigilance so much already, and baby is only 6 months old! It's exhausting! I find it nuts that it isn't obvious that if the baby is cold you need to give them an extra layer of clothing, and if they wee on themselves you need to change them into clean clothes, not just dry the dirty clothes with a hairdryer to reduce laundry!! 🫠🫠🫠

@mcrlover i think it all comes down again to the difference between reason and excuse.
i have a friend who I feel is extremely good at that. She’ll point out to her dcs where their behaviour is ND driven. She’ll explain how it’s important to accommodate. But it’s never an excuse.

She has 3 dcs, all ND, two of them in a special school.
And yet she still has discussion with the more severely affected (for want of a better word) on how THEY should accommodate their sibling around xyz (like a change of routine for them because sibling was doing Abc)
She is very clear in what is and isn’t acceptable behaviour whilst also o fostering the best environment fir them.

never knew this at all

my DH has trouble with hoarding and overworking too

One positive thing is they have the money to not worry because he works. But he is also rarely home and when he is he is still busy doing something. There seems to be no balance and he basically abandons his family. When he has time off he’s moody and pacing around. He has no friends or hobbies, life is just working and buying things. I think it has a lot to do with our parents. Working makes sense, it’s logical, his family and their needs and emotions make none. Our parents didnt teach him about doing things for joy and the joy of spending time with people. He thinks all of that is pointless, which is sad.