Married to someone with Asperger’s/ASD/ND: support thread 17

[SpecialMangeTout3]

New thread.
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This thread is for those of us seeking to explore the dynamics of long term relationships with our ND partners. Some of us are ND ourselves, very many of us have ND children. It is a support thread, and a safe space, it does get emotional at times. Avoid sweeping generalisations if possible, try and keep it specific to you and your partner.
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It's complicated and it's emotional.
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The old thread is here.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5355546-married-to-someone-with-aspergersasdnd-support-thread-16?page=10&reply=148665446

Ha! Yes indeed. I wouldn’t really call him my DP anymore but have posted about him many times over the years. He does this 100%. If I’m tired, he’s exhausted. If I’m unwell, he feels terrible. If I’m in pain, he’s also in pain. My dad and SIL (both Autistic) are exactly the same.

I’ve tried to work out why.

All three very much want to play the role of martyr. There’s A LOT of martyring. ExDP will even invent things so he can present himself as the martyr (ie he’s had to miss a family event to help me with something, but turns out although he had been invited to the event, he had no intention of going anyway. But presents it “look what I’ve given up for you”). So I think with my people there is a natural tendency to want to martyr/make people feel sorry for them.

I think with my dad, whose ability to empathise is the lowest of all three of them, he wants to relate to people but he has literally no clue how! His only frame of reference is himself. So if you’ve got a pain somewhere, all he can do is mention that HE has pain in his foot/shoulder/body part! And then of course that will be the where the conversation goes. I guess it’s to try and relate, but without ANY social compass to tell him this isn’t how one does that. I suppose we all do it a bit. Someone has a shit time at work and tells you about it, and you say oh yes I had something similar at work a couple of years ago….. you’re not trying to hog the conversation, just let the person know you get it/know how they feel. With my Autistic people, they want to show empathy, but sadly their natural focus is themselves/their experience.

So yes, to try and explain it, I wonder if it is a mix of wanting to be a victim (poor me, I’m also unwell) and also an attempt to relate but lack of social compass means diverting the focus/conversation to themselves. This is what I find anyway. (Caveat: not all autistic people, etc etc).

That’s very interesting how you say they divert it back to themselves. I wonder how they view the world and their people within it when they only have themselves as reference. Are they less able to understand others needs? I do feel this about my own situation. My parents created a one size fits all environment and my brother adapted (although with issues) and I could not. I have different needs that they didn’t understand and neither did I in the end. I thought I was just wrong as I didn’t fit but I now understand them to be too inflexible. Good partners are able to adapt an environment to fit a kids needs so they can bloom.

Dh and I have started martiage councelling. I have spent much of this week crying tbh.
I don't feel secure really with him.

@BustyLaRoux i love how you’re talking about ‘my autistic people’.

@mcrlover i hope you’re on the mend from covid. It can be a brutal illness, let alone when you’re also looking after a baby.
is your baby ok too?

@malificent7 are you happy to share what’s been so difficult with the counselling?

If I’m honest, I’m finding counselling hard work and very energy consuming. I can imagine doing it as couples counselling is even worse.
Do you feel you’ve had a voice in there? Somewhat concerned you’re feeling unsafe/you can’t trust your DH

Second Friday in a row where DH is taking control of Friday night dinner and washing up. Loving it! Also has fixed and hung up various pictures that have been waiting for it for ages (I do some myself, but others he is fussier about). Not betting on it lasting once he starts working again, but it's nice while it lasts.

Regarding counselling, we're going to have some more sessions soon - I think one thing I need to address, and I'd be interested in other people's experience of this, is this 'No! Everyone else is wrong!' attitude that comes when he is frustrated.

It is one of DH's less charming habits that when he's, say, frustrated by a rule or when the facts or expert opinion seem annoy him, he can fly into this state of 'Ugh! This rule/idea is stupid, the people who came up with it are obviously stupid, interfering dickheads'. eg I'll remind him that the psychiatrist had told us repeatedly that kids with ADHD are 2-3 years behind their peers on the whole and he'll be all 'Hmmm, don't know about that'. To which I'd say 'I don't think you don't get to say that until you've personally done peer reviewed research on thousands of kids' developmental progress'.

Because he's otherwise a rational and sensible person - I want to tell him when he does this he's being like anti-vaxxers who go 'Oh, well I don't like vaccinations so the experts are wrong and I'm right'. I find it kind of cringey and beneath him - don't know if others have experienced this.

@Echobelly
yes! I’ve been here a very long time but rarely post now.
H does this all the time, he always knows better than the experts, but with no research. Drives me insane.
When his daughter was in her early teens (now in her 30’s) and used to stay with us once a month, she had what appeared to me to be an eating disorder. I was concerned, asked him to contact his ex about it, he completely refused to, told me I was being ridiculous. I am a qualified general and psychiatric nurse with experience in eating disorders and young people. But he knew best!
Daughter subsequently was diagnosed with bipolar and prescribed Lithium aged 17, although now no longer on it. I strongly suspect she is autistic.
the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree

STBXH is very much like this, in his first reaction to something he dislikes. (He will often rethink and revise if I call him out on it rationally enough, but as you say it's very unattractive). I found living through COVID really hard with him because he was constantly questioning the rules and saying they were stupid etc. Which, yes, some of them were, but we still had to follow them and it made my life no easier having to handle HIS emotions and anger whilst also, for example, having to take then tiny DD for a PCR test so she could be cleared to go to nursery after spiking a temp etc.

my husband has the thign about money and it contributed to me having a severe psychotic breakdwon that cost me every single thing id worked for.

do you tihnk this is related to ADHD/Autism or neurodivergence?

@LucyLoo1972 im so sorry you’ve been through it too. It’s so so so debilitating. Get away from your husband is all I can say. Your body sees them as a threat. The body keeps scanning and it keeps the score, it can’t lie to you like your mind can, minimising your pain, pretending you can survive on crumbs. I’m not sure where the issue with money comes from. DH was very poor growing up. He never moved on from watching pennies and finding bargains like when he was a child, despite earning in the 1%. He kept it all hidden, was secretive and lied about how money to me. It’s such a dismantling of your trust and good nature I found. I’m not extravagant, far from it. Yet he made me feel like I was a flagrant spender. Any money I did spend on was commented on. He was horrible and made me feel like I wasn’t worth spending any money on. I don’t know if it’s the ND. What I do know is he lacks empathy, does not consider my inner world ever, lives got routines and patterns, loves external markers of achievement, has a very narrow band for emotional capacity, can fall in love/lust but cannot give true love, the love that grows with life that is messy, cannot he vulnerable, needs control, authority, can’t sit with shame, can’t sit with presence for anyone, cannot put anyone above himself or his own needs. He’s a nightmare and to think I’m grieving this person. What the hell is wrong with me? I filed for divorce today and what’sapped him to telling him and that he’d receive a notification. He wrote back “well done, thank you”. WTF???

On the matter of neurodivergence and abusive behaviour.... yes, I have been to a place in the past where I asked myself if DH was abusive with his anger. I came to the conclusion no, because he didn't like his anger and he never, ever threatened me or the kids with it. There was no 'Do that/don't do that or I'll get angry'. Also he never chipped way at my self esteem - although I seem to have a fairly unassailable self esteem, when people do try to do me down I know there is no good reason behind it I don't let it undermine me. I can imagine someone who didn't have that could have trampled by DH's temper - but I've always been able to say 'No, that's not fair/not my fault' when it isn't (and usually admit when that's not the case too)

Another reason why not clicked into place recently, listening to someone describe how a therapist attempting to improve the behaviour of abusive men by teaching them how to communicate better (I think this sort of approach is largely discredited now), found the men coming back and saying 'It isn't working, she isn't doing what I want so I had to go back to the old way'. DH's anger has never been about 'getting what he wants', it's not consistent, it's not predictable, sometimes he could have a huge fit about something as if it's the most important thing in the world to him, but months or years later the same thing comes up in conversation and it's a non-issue - he was just totally dysregulated about it in the moment.

But @LucyLoo1972 it sounds like the money issue is a consistent thing and presumably trying get you to do something or not do something. And that's abusive, ND or no.

with the money it was exactly the same iwth my husband. he was in top 5% and we never ever had any debts - we lived in a dilapidated house becsue he didnt want ot pay anybody to do anything. honestly im amazed you can tell all this from ym tiny comment becasue that was the smallest part of it. I wish I could send you private message becasue there's thigns id liek to ask not on the main forum. I dont know what ot do now becasue I lost everythign and had fought very very hard to get a phd and be publishing in elite academia. I even have disabilities now. I came form a background of abuse and poverty as a child but I had even less as an adult.

That explain a lot. If we have unresolved trauma from the past, we are likely to repeat in the future. You found a man that recreated your childhood and you continued to tolerate it. We do this because it’s familiar. Not because it’s healthy. The key to breaking the pattern is a very good therapist. And pharmacological support while you recover from the breakdown. It’s an incredibly tough thing to go through. But if you succeed you break the pattern and won’t pass it in to your kids if you have them. @LucyLoo1972

if you don’t have a loving relationship modelled to you, you have no template to know what healthy relationship is. So you revert back to known feelings.

you can look up attachment styles. My husband is a dismissive avoidant. He avoids emotions at all costs. This is very damaging to the other person in the relationship and it forces you into emotional shut down and self erasure where you are expected to cease having any emotional needs.

it often comes with controlling authoritarian behaviour to ensure compliance.

healthy attachment style is the way forward, people who know loving relationships won’t tolerate what we did because they say, this is shit, I’m not putting up with this and leave. We on the other hand, who never felt loved as children, and abandoned, coerced, forced to subjugate our needs to the forces of our parents, repeat the same patterns in relationships and stay, believing that this is ok and normal when it most definitely is not.

im really sorry you’ve been through this. It’s a shit show. I do think this has a male and ND element to it. I see the same stories but differing versions over and over again. I imagine there are some women like this too but how many I couldn’t say.

Had enough of living with DH who has empathy of a stone. My DM is dying and i feel completely on my own with it all

Sorry to hear that @Georgeismydog. Do you have any friends you can lean on? Probably easier to shut yourself off to him, pretend he’s not there, so you can focus on your own feelings and finding a way to cope that doesn’t include him.

Pashazade

No friends

You’ve got us, on here. This thread is so valuable for me. I read more than I write, but I know I’m not alone.

I’m sorry. This is so hard. I lost my mum too and I completely understand. You must be exhausted, overwhelmed and heart broken. Please share with us how you’re feeling, if you want to.

I find there is an empathetic range with my autistic people. Some have a bit more than others. Some can be taught it, or at least to practice their empathy skills. And some have none whatsoever. May as well ask for engagement/support/comfort from a shoe. (Probably get more comfort from a shoe actually!) I’m guessing your DH is below a shoe on the empathy scale?

Sending so much love @Georgeismydog. I’d make you tea and give you a hug in real life 🩷

I’m so sorry @Georgeismydog

Some virtual hugs 🫂🫂
And yes, if you feel like it, please share with us. It’s hard to Luve with someine who just cannot offer any support when you need it (my own dh would say he doesn’t know what to say, cant do anything about it so…. basically not his problem).
So yes anything. Your anger towards your dh if you feel like it. Or your sadness, worry. You have support here.

Had an appalling bust up last night over DS Of course before I had to get up at 4.50am to go to Manchester for an all day work thing and I haven't slept a wink.

He called me a coward for 'refusing to have hard conversations' with our son and failing him (nb, I don't agree and I stand by safeguarding DS wellbeing) and demanded I tell DS a harsh message from him which I refused because I said I can't do it sincerely and it wouldn't be meaningful. And again said DS is in this mess because in have never let DH do things his way (well he repeatedly does regardless). DS was in tears and was off on a 4-day school trip this morning so I see him until Sunday. So - not a great day today.

Oh @@Echobelly that’s so rough, your poor thing! Big hugs, sorry DH is being a knob. Not much I can say that hasn’t been said before. Other than reiterate to him I am not bullying our son just so your ego can cope with life. Hope DS has fun.

DH has been texting me fairly normally. He did see me off but was still frosty first thing today. Won't get home until 10.30 tonight I just hope he doesn't kick off again as I need sleep. He always complains after these rows that he won't be able to sleep but he can always turn over and drop off, whereas I'm left awake all night fuming. I guess because he's let off his steam, but I'm not even going to try to match that.

Quote: "I find there is an empathetic range with my autistic people. Some have a bit more than others."

I have found that my autistic mother learns nothing by explanation. She only learns when the exact thing she does is done to her. She always interrupts with: "Change the topic!" when it's anything she can't emotionally handle. I did that to her once. She was visibly shocked and as I recall she stopped doing that. (But to be frank, I hated having to play hardball every day, because more often than not it would result in my mother melting down in hysterics...)

A friend who has PDD-NOS (kind spirit, patient fellow, raised well by his mum) told me that as a kid he has a phase where he kicked everyone. He told me his mum had said "Stop that, that hurts." He told me he didn't understand the meaning of that, until his mum decided that she really had to do something about it and decided to kick him (once, reluctantly). He shyly told me "That's when I learned that it hurts". There's something up with mirroring neurons in autism apparently, and they can't automatically see what it's like for another person. The situation has to reverse itself exactly, and for some even then it doesn't click..

Maybe this helps someone out there.