Do narcissistic people know they are like this?

[Theydontwantme]

Do they think that they are the same as everyone else? Do they realise that they are always thinking about their needs and how and who to get them from? They appear to meet some people’s needs so they know they should but it’s always because they get something in return. I just don’t understand how they don’t know what they are???? Surely after a while you’ll realise you are selfish.

OP I think what you need most of all to do right now is grieve. Grieve thr loss of parents and loss of wider family.

I'm sorry. It hurts like nothing else, and while partner/children/friends can provide some comfort it isn't the same. I know.

So they are happy when you are making them happy which is usually just about making them feel special and important.

What is a mental illness then? Is it only the unpalatable conditions?

I accept it but don't tolerate it any more. My DM is estranged from all her children, grandchildren and now great grandchildren.

What are they wired for?

Are they like drug addicts with attention?

Yep, this is pretty much it.

And the minute you dare step out of line you’re turned on.

People with a lot of narcissitic personality traits are intrinsically unable to self reflect or take accountability.

I actually feel sorry for them as it's not unusual for them to find, as they get older, they become more and more alone and isolated because they genuinely believe they deserve more/are better/ had the right to take that thing or say that thing or whatever and they get more and more confused when they get pushback.

This is particlarly true for covert narcissists who are also often less successful in life etc so can't even use money/ charisma/ excitement to keep a vague circle around them.

Unfortunately however, while I feel sorry for them, the best way to see them is like the scorpion in the story of the frog and scorpion crossing the river - they simply cannot help themselves. It is in their nature to sting people and destroy things, even if it also destroys them. So trusting them, or letting them into your life in any way is always going to be a mistake.

IME I’ve only ever met one person who I genuinely believe met the clinical criteria to have narcissistic personality disorder. And no there is zero insight that they are horrible- to them they are always right, everyone else is wrong. And there’s always shocking double standards. They are just extremely delusional.

I think a key indicator of a narcissist is that they fall out with virtually everybody in their life but it’s never their fault, they can’t seem to grasp that they are the common denominator and most of the people they fall out with never have a problem with anyone else.

My mum bought something from the town I live in (next to theirs) theirs is a nicer village. She got home and told me she washed the item so it no longer smells of that place. We live here, it’s a nice normal place, why say that? She is like this all the time.

She talks as if everything she touches is gold, everyone thinks she’s special, everyone wants to be like her, everyone gravitates around her, it’s non stop. She never ever steps out of this snow globe, she never visits, never makes anyone feel special even on birthday, she always plays it all down.

I wanted to comment on this, @Theydontwantme because my father was almost certainly NPD (he was sectioned in the end after it all went horribly wrong). My mother also has some difficult behaviours although I'm not convinced narcissism is her main problem. First off, though, I'm sorry you're going through this. Realising that your parents aren't that interested in you is really hard. It makes you rethink your whole life. I was estranged from my father for years and I'm LC with my mother.

My father also used to tell stories about how everyone thought he was amazing and clever and talented. How they envied him and wanted to be just like him. How they could see his specialness and we (his family) were dicks for not realising how lucky we were to be related to him. It took me a long time to be able to see it, but it was all a lie. No-one thought he was special or talented, they mostly thought he was an arrogant prat and a bully and avoided him. He had a few friends but they were all absolutely awful people. He talked himself up constantly, told us all he was so amazing, he was just so creatively talented (despite not producing a single piece of creative work in twenty odd years - this was, apparently, our fault because he couldn't be expected to create with such an uninspiring, unsupportive and boring family). I never heard ANYONE outside of the family say that they thought he was clever or amazing or talented. The only person who said it was him. It never made any sense to me because there was no evidence for any of it, but my mother fell for the bullshit hook, line and sinker. She spent years, and I mean YEARS of her life trying to convince him that she was worthwhile and just as good as other people, trying to figure out how to get things 'right' so he would finally be pleased and be happy. But she was never able to, because there is no 'right' with someone like this. It was almost like she had a pathological desire to win the game and couldn't let go until she had.

It is OK to walk away from a narc and be the loser. Let them think you're the loser. Let them tell other people you're a loser. You don't need to convince them otherwise (you can't anyway, because the goalposts constantly move). It's OK. Let them think they've won, whatever that means.

But I also know how hard it is to realise that you're not that important to your parents. My mother has shown me that time and time again. I get attention if I'm useful but other than that she's not really interested in me. She's not interested in me as a person beyond what I can do for her. It can sometimes be really lonely. I stopped trying a long time ago, tbh, though I don't think she understands why. But I won't beg or perform for her attention any more. It's not worth the price.

I think it's also important to realise your self worth is not based on your DM opinions/ behaviour
It's not anything you have done
Toxic families centre around one person who rules the roost.
I have seen it described as a boat, the central figure rocks the boat violently, and each of the fanily members are assigned a role - do this or the ship will sink
This means utter obedience and self-sacrifice to the central figure
Essentially, it is a means of exerting extreme control and feeding of the damaged ego via that power.
You left the family unit to form your own( normal), and so she has moved from extreme control to discard .

Very very tough to come to terms with but the first step is to understand that she cannot and will not change.
There is NOTHING you can do or say which will change this because this is not your fault

Her behaviour towards you is a reflection of her self worth, she can only feel ok by extreme control and manipulation
She can only boost her self esteem by boasting, exaggeration and inflation

I suspect you are a decent, good human being and this challenges her
It's the most normal person in the family that is usually cast out

Accept this gift and move forward, your children will not be manipulated by her, well done

6

Some experts (and others) do argue that personality disorders are a type of neurodiversity - especially personality disorders with borderline traits.

At the moment personality disorders are still classed as mental illness unlike neurodiversity which is a neurological difference.

There is overlap and also difference - ASD and ADHD have to have been observable (even if not diagnosed) before the age of 7 (some say 12 for ADHD just because of the blurred lines of age appropriate behaviour). Personality disorders only have to have been present for two years before diagnosis and until recently it was considered inappropriate to diagnose personality disorders in children, and even in the latest guidance it's to be approached with extreme caution in under 16s.

So those things are diametrically opposite.

Generally the understanding is that personality disorders are a combination of genetic predisposition with environment throughout life (for example trauma at any point in childhood and adolescence or ongoing experiences in childhood and adolescence), while neurodiversity is genetic with only the environment before and immediately after birth being relevant sometimes.

Personality disorders with borderline traits are especially associated with trauma.

You can most definitely have both autism and a personality disorder, Both my parents - one super loving, but antisocial, indulged in criminal behaviour, used people, could be cruel etc. classic ASPD.

The other parent, neglectful, focussed only on herself, no need to get supply from her children, as she didn't actually care - no idea what she is. There doesn't seem to be a personality disorder to describe a mother that doesn't give a shit

@NotTheSameTwentyFourHours given how much development there has been in the fields of both ND and personality disorders and the tendency for both ND and for some PDs to be influenced by genetics I can't help thinking that at some point the investigators and classifieds are going to come to the conclusion that things just aren't as clear cut as they say now.

Yes. Things change every few years and it's really a matter of what the prevailing theoretical paradigm is, absolutely not about proven fact.

Most of medicine is actually just theory, but psychiatry even more so.

People love to speculate about why there are so many more autism diagnoses made and invent conspiracy theories, but they don't bother checking how the diagnostic criteria have changed since the first diagnoses in the 1940s when the term was still being used interchangably with childhood schizophrenia! More and more people match the criteria as they keep changing.

Also the ICD 11 and DSM 5 don't even use the same criteria for some diagnoses, and for some things only America uses the DSM but for others it's not that clear cut.

So what does it come down to, some people just aren’t that nice to be around for whatever reason. I get tired of making allowances because I know my mum didn’t have a great childhood herself but now we all have to suffer.

You're not in contact any more, and your siblings and nieces/ nephews are not in contact with her either, so you get on with your lives. Your parent isn't your responsibility especially as she's capable of looking after herself. It's entirely possible that it isn't her fault, or isn't wholly her fault, that ahe is as she is - but that doesn't make it your responsibility.

You mentioned that all her children and grandchildren have cut her out, so surely you can all have your own family gatherings etc.

I'm not usually the first to suggest therapy, but perhaps you could talk through your feelings with someone neutral - perhaps in the context of grieving the mother you didn't have, rather than ruminating on why she is as she is or why you got that mother.

I am curious about how you're so sure of her diagnosis - does she have a personality disorder diagnosed which she is open about or you have found out about? Or is it your armchair diagnosis in which case it easily could be something other than a personality disorder? In the end it doesn't matter though, your problem is how to move on.

Do you live very close to your mother? You're no contact and so are your siblings but you still seem to be very aware of what she's doing and saying. Perhaps let mutual aquatintences know that you don't want updates.

There is no formal diagnosis. There is nothing wrong with her, she doesn’t want emotional intimate relationships with anyone, she thinks it’s all nonsense.

I was wondering how long it’s be until someone said this.

my stbxh is a diagnosed narcissist. There are a lot more narcissists around than you’d care to believe. They rarely seek help and that is why it goes undiagnosed. It sounds like you have yet to encounter one. Lucky you.

How did he get diagnosed?

With my mum, it's autism, plus total lack of empathy. She prefers to live in her own world, with her own special interests and doesn't really give a damn about anyone else. Before anyone jumps on me, I am diagnosed autistic myself

Sorry I don’t want to sound rude….are you like this? I know some ND people and they aren’t like this. Most of the ones I know go over and above because they always think they are doing things wrong.