Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

With no guilting intended, and only going on some sensibly brief description here, I am also a bit worried for your DS; yes, it's his F's issue to take up, if DS is raging, but he has had the feelings of hope from the months where the boat has been rocked and you were not tolerating the DH's behaviour any more. Those are about to be disappointed.

What I was thinking was that if you were uncomfortable enough with your counsellor saying 'Don't use obsession, the word you should be changing it for is passion', and this not serving to alter your viewpoint at all (and feeling false), then your DS might be thinking something very similar, and be about to feel disempowered on a lot of fronts, if his response has been to be blunt and straight-talking but that this appears to be something to protect his F from now.

Just catching up @FourAndFive . Your updates sound really positive.
I'm so impressed at how you've handled everything. And so pleased to see he's finally catching up and working with you to make things better.
You've got your eyes open, him coming home is the next step of a long road buy I'm feeling really optimistic for you that you'll see more happiness alongside the challenges xx

I am certainly not qualified to definitively call him a covert narc, but I can only say IMO he definitely reads as having many of the traits.

When one side of a marriage is a peacekeeping people pleaser whose focus is to keep everyone happy, it can be really difficult to see their partner clearly.

We only ever really see who we are with when shit hits the fan, or shit gets real.

We are all on the OP's side and want to protect her and her children.

Undoubtedly they will be hyper aware of what is going on.

A couple I know divorced 2 years ago after the husbands final affair became public, he had had a few others that they didn't realise the son suspected.
His wife threw him out and immediately instigated divorce proceedings as she was utterly humiliated by him and her good friend.
Just awful.

His eldest son is in St.Andrews and has refused all contact with his father and is only in text contact with his lovely mother.

He is very angry at them both.
His sister is approaching 18 and has told her mother she will also go to St. Andrews to be with her brother.
They are very wealthy but have two furious children on their hands.
Both were devoted parents, even the horndog father.
Their children are lovely children whom are devastated by their parents pubic shit show marriage.

If his wife had her way she would do things so differently. She would have thrown him out first time and protected the children ahead of her marriage and image of a happy family that she now admits she put first.

Your childrens opinion of you is priceless OP, IMO.
Protect it at all cost.
Put it so far ahead of him.

This. So much this.

Your DC have a genuine reason to be angry/hurt/confused/ashamed of their father. The relationships with him may never be what they were before because he betrayed their trust, too.

So please resist the urge to 'soften' their reaction or behaviour towards him. Don't teach them to swallow down legitimate feelings and or go easy on him because it's what you want. I agree with @Fairgamer that this is just encouraging people-pleasing/doormat behaviour.

I wonder if your DC would feel more forgiving if they saw genuine accountability and remorse from their father. It's great that their tolerance is low for his appalling behaviours.

@FourAndFive a friend of mine’s husband left her and their two children (one teen plus one very nearly teen) for an affair partner (all turned to crap now of course but his bed to lie on) and the youngest child will still see him after the divorce, but the eldest refused to have anything to do with him after he left and still does.
All you can do is ask them to honestly, no judgement, tell you what they think about their father and his return home and reassure them that their relationship with their father must always be on their terms and they do not have to do anything they don’t feel comfortable with.
You have not modelled doormat behaviour to your children, you refused to put up with his behaviour and attitude and made it clear that the only way back home was under your conditions and only if he demonstrated remorse and a will to change and commit himself fully to and prioritise you and the marriage.
Allowing him to stay in the marriage whilst his behaviour continues would be tolerance of his behaviour, you have made it perfectly clear that you will not tolerate it and that you end the marriage should there be a recurrence.
You are modelling to your children how to repair a relationship after a crisis and the criteria and circumstances under which repairing a relationship is viable. You are showing them that marriage is important and also hard work sometimes and only to be discarded when you are satisfied that the breach is too serious for you to bear, that your husband is abusive, or when it is clear that change after such a breach is never going to happen.
Those who think there is no way back at all from something like this would not attempt what you are doing, that is their right and it is to be respected. However your decision to try to repair the relationship, based on what you now know and your history together, should also be respected and not be labelled in such a pejorative manner.
He has a lot of work to do regarding his relationship with you and his children, and as other posters quite rightly point out, it is for him to repair and not for you to facilitate.
Honesty from everyone with no pressure to please anyone is what is needed now. This time of year heightens everything, find out now what everyone is comfortable doing, make sure everyone is aware of each other’s feelings on it and plan from that at present.
One day at a time now, the pressure is on him to demonstrate his remorse and ask what you and the children need from him. And he does it without a murmur.

This is it.

You have handled this whole situation across the past so many months, with amazing grace and dignity OP - with both of your head and heart involved in the perfect balance - I think you have done the right thing, every step of the way.

I think sometimes these mid life crisis 'crush'es are a one off and the person when out of it is back to their sensible loving kind self again. Not oversimplifying but advocating for you to also approach this re-marriage again with optimism and Hope ('tis a christmas miracle when a family finds their way to each other again !)

when does he move back in OP

Good luck with everything, we have shared your journey with you these past few months and are always here for you to talk to !

There is no way he would end your marriage himself, he's got too much to lose. Reputation, assets, home, kids. I wouldn't take him "not ending it" as anything other than him looking after himself.

I agree with this and if the vulnerable young woman had even blinked in his direction once he communicated he was ‘available’ in late Aug / Sept OP wouldn’t be in the position she is today to choose to forgive and rebuild.

He did actually end the marriage, as it was, by his persistent destructive behaviours over many months, on his continued, stubborn, insistence to get his own way, to emotionally hijack the family with his threats of the worst action and when push comes to shove he repeatedly chose his needs over his wife and children by moving out, staying out and hoping OW would come round.

She’s obviously out of the picture and I respect the path OP has chosen, I would just caution on the emotional dynamics. OP has been treading water waiting for his penny to drop. He took his time and I don’t think he chose OP.

OP must be shattered and relieved it’s ’all over’. OP will have a different marriage now and a difficult road ahead once the boost from the return dissipates and the inevitable ‘hysterical bonding’ phase runs it’s course after about 6 months.

But I do wish OP all the very best and I hope he steps up and is a bigger and better person because she deserves it and he doesn’t know how lucky he is.

Does doing what you ask include giving up the hobby completely? You have recognised it is an obsession that had probably been detrimental to your relationship even before the affair. Have you asked this of him, as I can’t imagine it’s not something you haven’t wanted him to do. Again, if not, why not? It means that there is no possibility whatsoever of contact with her, no possibility of others talking about her etc. It would free him up to give the time required for the work he needs to do for himself, and for your relationship. If I were you it would also go quite some way towards me sleeping soundly in my bed at night too.

You are learning not be a doormat for anyone - and that includes your children and anyone on mumsnet who thinks they can tell you what to do. Your children will grow and leave home and their relationship to their father is for them to sort out, not for you to fix or mitigate. Just acknowledge however they feel and maybe explain why you dont want to give up a long standing relationship too easily. There is far too much intolerance in the modern world. You are teaching them that where they have their boundaries may be different to yours but that is fine.

It looks like everything is getting back on track and while this path would not appeal to me, I can see why you're taking it and I think you are doing well with pace and rigour, so keep it up and you will both get there.

Remember: Don't let him back just because it's Christmas. Keep going on that journey until he completes it.

Can you suddenly become a narc in mid-life?
We all have narcissist traits to some extent. Some people are better at battling those traits than others. Sometimes the traits come to the fore, or we give in to them, because a certain situation arises. Very few people have a personality disorder. https://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder/narcissistic-traits#whats-npd

Making a decision, as you have done, can be empowering. I hope that's the effect your decision has. From your last long post it sounds like you know it's OK to change your mind or rethink the situation later if you've tried an option out and realise it's not what you were hoping for. Don't let anyone guilt you out of that.

How was Christmas, OP?

Has your relationship improved and does your DH finally understand what he did was wrong?

@FourAndFive I hope you are doing ok and that you managed t have a good Christmas

Hi @FourAndFive hope you’re doing well and so is your dad. What’s the situation at home now?

@FourAndFive a similar thread is currently running. I think, if you have head space, it’s worth reading and maybe commenting. Hope you are doing well and your dad’s results were positive.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5490317-dhs-friendship-with-woman-at-work-is-killing-our-marriage

Hope you had a good Christmas and that things are now going the way you want, whatever that is.

I've not really had the words to update. Well, that's not strictly true. The words seem to come and go. It's such a weird place to be. Is it helpful to update without an update? When life is just being life? I'm not sure. I guess it might be to those in the same boat as me. Here goes.

Very simply put - we have some glorious moments where I don't remember what he put me through, but then I remember.

Of course it's not all roses, but we do all the usual chores in sync like we always did. We're laughing much like we used to, we're making plans and having fun much like we used to. He's is the helpful, caring, thoughtful husband I thought I had before all the shit. And then I remember what it took out of me to get here. My fierce best mate says sometimes, "I see the smile, but I don't believe the smile". Others who have no clue what's happened check in on me, which is so lovely, but it shows I'm not me.

It feels like everything is made of sand, built on top of a sand island in Sandstown and I can't shift that feeling. For example, if we do bicker, I immediately revert to - ITS OVER, I CAN'T DO IT. Sometimes I think 'well that's okay, we're never promised tomorrow so just live for today', that's all well and good, but it's exhausting. I also think I enjoyed the time on my own more than I expected. Hey ho.

Interestingly I'm now absolutely terrified of his phone and iPad. They were my window into getting the proof in the beginning, I can't bear thinking about that feeling. They are open to me, but I wont ever go down that route again. Checking up on him isn't an option. There will be no need - one more strike and you're out. I go on instinct, it hasn't let me down yet. Perhaps I am deluded - perhaps the proof is there, and I'm scared to admit it? Urgh.

I've also noticed that when DH is in his head, (which I think has always happened) I have zero patience for it. I'm sick of trying to coach, coax, draw, sympathise or be anything other than infuriated with him for it. Sort Your Fucking Shit Out. It's unlike me, but I am where I am.

I stopped marriage counselling. We were getting somewhere in between sessions, but then it would be a massive step backwards after each one. Policing my language pissed me off, thanks MN - I would've allowed it otherwise. It seemed to be like the MC was supporting me, but finding the thing that he could berate me for to make DH feel better? Almost, anyway.

Oh, and a very small word on her. She's around, I've seen her. He's still doing his hobby, but it's elsewhere. He's still obsessed.

I want to finish on a positive note, but it's hard today, we're not out of the woods yet. I love him fiercely, I know I've done the right thing, I know it. I'm allowed to have all of these feelings and to give them air time.

Oh, this is positive - My lovely Dad got great results so no need for further treatment yet, they're just keeping an close eye on things. If he needs more treatment, his other symptoms have subsided so he'd be able to do it. His spirits are improving every day - he's almost back to his cheeky self which is marvellous (thanks to the posters who asked about him). Oh, and the kids are just bloody GREAT.

What a ramble. Thanks for reading you lovely lot. You rock.x

Thanks for the update @FourAndFive , I've been thinking of you.
It's a long road and I remember this place well. There is a word given that phase of ambivalence but I can't recall it. Essentially our partner isn't a safe place for us at that time so we create distance (intentionally or uninentionally). It differs from that first phase where we fight for the relationship, and the second where we fight for ourselves. I'm my experience his response to this stage is the make or break. He needs to be absolutely steady and committed and the one to keep everything level.
I remember very well what you describe of having no patience for him going into himself or even having an off day, I was so completely done with showing him patience!
You're an amazing person, and he's very lucky that you've had the love and patience to get you both this far. Hand the reigns over to him for now. You know you'd be fine either way so let him pick up the weight of working through this phase whilst you heal as best you can x

I too remember this place, @FourAndFive.
It will take a lot of time to calm down the triggers and feeling of ‘alertness’, for want of a better word. Even a small argument can trigger immense rage from nowhere, if you detect even the slightest inflection in his voice, look on his face or defensiveness, even about something mundane like taking the bins out.
Just know that at any time you can decide to change your mind, it is your decision and only you know whether it is worth it. Good decision not to check up or try to police everything, nobody can stop or prevent anything somebody wants to do. He’s the only one who can change this and make you feel safe.
Sending you love and strength.

@Allthegoodonesareg0ne - wow, he isn't my safe space any more, that's exactly what it is. He isn't safe.

Letting go of control where I have no control anyway?! What a concept! I know I'll be fine, so what is stopping me just letting him do all the work? Is it because historically we've always been a team? Just some thoughts...

@Thewookiemustgo oh the rage comes in from nowhere, doesn't it? It takes me totally off guard. One tiny hint of an eye roll and wow, red mist. It's to be expected, but irrational. Or is it? Everyone has their last straw. I can't live like it indefinitely - does it get better?

Some days, the why is overwhelming. I just want to know why. Very loudly and in a really shouty voice: WHY DID YOU PUT ME HERE?! WHAT DID I DO? HOW COULD YOU IGNORE ME? WHY DID YOU LEAVE WHEN I TOLD YOU TO. WHY DIDN'T YOU FIGHT. WTF?!!? All the fun questions. The irony is, no answer will be good enough and what's done is done. I play the scenario in my head sometimes. Him: I need to be with her. Me: Okay, go on then, fuck off. And I just waltz into the sunset...

I appreciate the words of wisdom and encouragement so, so much. I feel better for posting, as I knew I would.x

You absolutely do have control @FourAndFive - that's the magic! You know you'd be fine either way. You know how strong you are, you've found your value again.
What you can hand over is responsibility for repairing the marriage - that's his job right now. A lot of that is answering your questions as well as remaining a steady and patient source of support for you and showing his commitment every day.
It's not as easy as I'm making it sound but stepping back and watching what he does next will give you an expectation of the future. You don't need to feel the same responsibility for pulling everything back together that you have so far.
I still get stuck on the whys, even when I've heard the answers 100 times but I don't always feel the need to ask them Outloud, you'll get there too x

"Others who have no clue what's happened check in on me, which is so lovely, but it shows I'm not me."
This really is sad. I hope he is noticing that.
I would so be checking his phone after what he did.. Probably to look for the one strike which would lead to me booting him out for good though.

I think coming back to this thread is a bit like opening old wounds in a way when you are trying to heal. You don’t want to be reminded but every time you look at your husband he is a reminder of what happened.

He doesn’t sound like he is any more self aware than he was previously from what I glean from what you write but I could be wrong.

Did you ever get to go away on that break?