Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

I applaud you for your strength and for trying to save your marriage, it’s not an easy option and is hard work.
Ignore the ‘once a cheater…’ type posts, they’re unnecessary as of course you’re fully aware he could do this again or resume contact, everything he has done is no guarantee and equally there’s no guarantee that anyone who has never cheated will never cheat, either. The only way to guarantee that you will avoid infidelity in a relationship completely, is to never be in a relationship. You’re giving him a second chance and it’s over to him now to step up and live up to his words.
He’s saying/ doing all the right things now, time will tell if he means it, he only gets one chance and he’s seen the shitshow it caused you and his children, he’s got a very long way to go.
I hope he has learned from this and doesn’t squander the chance he’s been given, he’s a very lucky man. Sending you love and support X

Me too - once I was aware that he had it in him to be a bit of a shit regardless of mitigating circumstances and stresses at the time, I started putting myself first and being aware I needed to protect myself - I think one thing I suddenly woke up to was the fact he had maybe £40k of stuff he could sell for quick money, thousands of rare vinyls, the car etc - I had jack shit of significant value

We all wish you the very best.
You are worth 10 of him, which clearly your children privately acknowledge.

He's no prize.
He's a sleazy, covert narcissistic creep.

Beware of him turning this around after a few weeks of being on his best behavior.

His type can quietly seethe that they have been exposed and can turn quite sour, dissatisfied at being wronged and having to satisfy your demands to cut her off.

They will very quickly turn this around once they are back in the door and "punish" you with their moods and dissatisfaction.

Be very wary.

Good update but the thing that is missing is the apology. Best of luck with the plan ahead and I hope your DF recovers soon x

You say one of your DC has distanced himself from your DH, and you will see what you can do to bridge that gap. But this isn’t for you to do, is it? If there are bridges to be built, it’s absolutely your H who should be doing all the building!

I completely agree - we all have it in us to do something wrong at some time in our life, it doesn't necessarily have to define our future. When I was 21 I was in my first proper relationship and was besotted but he was less so. On a night out he behaved in a way that really upset up (not especially poor behaviour from him, but it really upset me) I'd had a bit to drink and back at the place we were staying I got really angry and I am ashamed to say I hit him. It obviously hurt him and he was really angry with me, quite understandably - the relationship was over (it was coming to an end anyway, I just couldn't see it) and it was a massive lesson for me. I have never hit a guy since and know I never would - so it is possible to learn from bad behaviour and take steps to ensure it is not repeated.

I appreciate I was an inexperienced (relationship wise) young person when I behaved the way I did, and we are talking about a much older person, but if you have never in a particular situation before, you may not realise quite how badly you are behaving. It may be that the situation OP's husband was in was the first time he had been in that situation, and may well be the last one. I think he is suffering considerably from this lesson (as he should!) and it is possible that this learning experience is sufficient to prevent him ever repeating the behaviour - just like I never hit a guy again.

That's my take on it anyway. I think OP is thinking things through thoroughly before each step she takes and if her gut feel is that there is value in seeing whether the marriage can be saved, then I think she is right to pursue it. It sounds as though she is approaching it with her eyes open and her guard up. Good luck OP.

Absolutely agree.
It's such a persistent habit and lie we women fall into thinking we are responsible for everyone's emotions.

@Noshadelamp 100% agree!

So he's finally set boundaries with his EAP. Does he still think he did nothing wrong? That's the real test.

As for you working to bridge the gap between your husband and the child that's pulled away from him, that's you enabling him and codependence kicking in. That is not up to you. You still have work to do on you.

Your husband has to fix what he broke by himself.

He has to do the work on your marriage. He has to do the work with his kid who's unhappy with his behaviour. You can't step in and fix his screwups.

Good luck. I hope your dad gets good news and feels better.

So agree.
His mess, his clean up.

OP do not disrespect your child's healthy boundary by intervening in this.

Your child has been negatively impacted by his inappropriate obsession with this woman, it is not for you to try and convince your child to forgive and forget.

Far better to make it clear that you respect them and their choices, and you are there if they need help if and when they might wish to move forward.

Your children have been profoundly affected by what has occurred.
Don't compound it with a second parent letting them down by forcing a reconciliation they are not ready for.

Time, respect and space.

Absolutely this...

Although he is making the right moves re contact with the OW, it still doesn't seem like he understands the hurt/turmoil HE has caused and the work HE needs to do on himself and by himself...

I agree too, lets be clear - I will encourage a good relationship, but I'm not about to 'make it better'. DC is a no shit kid, is very short and blunt with him, it's my intention to ease that off a bit. His bed and all that, though.

I hear you and thanks. I will watch out for my reaction to it.

“Whats the timeline and criteria for his return to the family home?
When it feels right. When the fully penny drops. When he takes full emotional responsibility for the damage he has caused. When he starts to show empathy to me and not her or his hobby. When he does everything he possibly can to distance himself and cut all contact with her.”

Has he done all of the above which was your criteria? Has he shown empathy for you and taken full emotional responsibility? How? I am not sure he has the emotional capacity or is even wired to do this by the obsessional, addictive makeup of his character from the behaviours you describe - maybe you know this too now.

I can see that the time of year maybe is forcing a decision if he was staying with a friend temporarily and he needs to vacate for Christmas and/or he is at a stage where he needs to make other decisions about his accommodation - eg to move on to get a 12 month tenancy elsewhere - and that would feel huge for your family. I understand that’s not where you are at right now.

These things are never a straight line - they evolve. Your marriage will be different now and I hope that you get to have a replenishing holiday away to help you - remember he has had everything he wanted - his hobby, his limerence, his choice to have a single life because he refused a basic expectation in marriage.

He’s very well rested and fulfilled - and will be positively bouncing that he’s had this excursion and now gets to swing back into the family home for Christmas.

From your posts on 1.10.25 it seems she dropped out of his life early-mid September and then it was actually her who put the brakes on the friendship by only briefly replying to HIS texts. From the outside it looks like SHE was the one who put in the distance and closed down the friendship unilaterally, starting nearly 3 months ago - and it’s only now after all of that time that he hoped she would come round, and realises she won’t that he is writing to her (with a gun at his head) in a performative way to appease you so he gets back home after she hasn’t responded to him.

And maybe even if that is the situation all of that is fine and acceptable for your family and marriage to restart - just take care of your needs and prioritise your recovery because you have been bludgeoned and traumatised over the very long time this has been going on whilst he has been living the life of Riley.

Agree with @Madchest, his behaviour is consistent with a covert narcissist having exhausted his obsession that SHE knocked back, and it NOW suits him to return home.

I am so sorry, but this does scream sloppy seconds of a man who has run out of road and is now returning to the nest, not out of love but purely because it suits him.

This type inevitably find another fix.

@Madchest That was a hard post to read from me. Seems like a lifetime ago.

He has done that, he does accept it and he is sorry - and not in a wishy washy way to keep the wife happy. But you are right, the fact is he did want his cake, and the whole process wasn't to my timeline, and he thought I would back down. I haven't. I wont.

I don't feel like he's had a gun to his head - he could say no. At any point he can say, 'listen, Four, it's time to call it quits'. He is not coming back for an easy life. He can be where he is long term. I can stay in the family home. But Christmas is coming and I'm sure that's had some hand in how we both think about the next steps/timeline.

He did try and manipulate and I can see that about him, and the realisation has been tough... @Keyhooks I hear you, and I appreciate your bluntness more than you know. He isn't a narc (covert or otherwise), surely? He can't have been acting for all our years we've been together? However, I see that this situation, and how he's handled it is ticking narcissistic. Can you suddenly become a narc in mid-life? Can addiction present like narcissism - covert or otherwise?

I wouldn't have felt so blindsided, if this wasn't so out of character, and wouldn't be married to him or working out a way for us to move forward. I can let him go, I've told him that in no uncertain terms. I don't want to let him go, but I can. I don't need him, I want him and our marriage to work and there is a difference.

He didn't have spots, and now he does, and they might not change. My eyes will be open for that. That is the damage that has been done, and can't be changed.

I know we have work to do. He knows he has work to do. My work is for me, his work is for us all. I am also very clear about what my future could look like without him, what I can do, and where I will be if I divorce him.

I will know when to let go if I have to.

Have the threatened suicide been dealt with yet.

Look: OP has made this decision and that is her right. None of us can say for sure what will happen. I, too, am pessimistic that he won’t make OP pay for having taken his toy away. Or that he won’t do it again. But OP knows that already—thanks to this thread.

Sometimes people have to reach into the fire again to retrieve something valuable. Even though they have been burned before. For OP right now that is the marriage. She feels she wants to salvage it if she can.

Dear OP: do what feels good and safe but be cautious. I agree with the above poster who said to keep your finances clear, keep your mad money topped up. See how he goes. You can always course correct if he backslides.

@pikkumyy77 is always a rock of sense.
Many women have great marriages because they do all the work and bending.

My darling grandmother told me two things that that I have never forgotten, you see the real character of a man when you say No, and when you are ill and need support, watch both carefully.
And, words are cheap, actions are what count, watch what he does, not what he says.

Both have guided me well.

You have been a loving supporting wife that has always bent, hence you never saw this side.

This IS the real him.
I understand you want it to be an aberration, but its not.

He has stuck with his obsession to the end, until she ended it.
At a massive cost to you and his children.
To a point that he threatened suicide.

I have no doubt that covert narcissism is possible.

Mind your finances for sure.

@FourAndFive you’ve made your decision and you’re prepared to take the risk with your eyes open. Loads of posts with “Yes, but what about….?” contain points that no doubt you’ve already covered in your own head. You’ve faced and come to terms with how you would feel if you split up, you know you can change your mind at any time and you know what you will and won’t tolerate going forwards. You don’t need to justify yourself or reassure anyone of any of it, you’ve set your stall out and you’re prepared to give him a chance based on his previous conduct.
That’s the end of it and you don’t need to unpick it for anyone or justify it. They’re not you, they don’t know him or your marriage.
I think anyone who has an affair or inappropriate relationship of any kind is selfish and entitled but it doesn’t make them a narcissist. Yes, the levels of lying and attempts at manipulation go up, but if these traits are isolated to happening within the incident you are objecting to and not applicable on all areas of his life, then they are narcissistic traits and not a full-blown narc, they are thankfully very rare but the word gets bandied about everywhere and there’s a distinction between the kind of entitlement and manipulation in an affair situation that if you do an online ‘is he a narcissist?’ type quiz, it will tell you that he is.
Selfishness, entitlement and attempts to control a situation that a person is lying about tick all the boxes for a narcissist, but narcissism is a full-blown personality disorder and even if covert, you’d be able to run back any scenario in your dealings with him during your relationship that with hindsight would tell you that that was what you were dealing with.
It’s more likely he’s displaying the narcissistic traits unfaithful people adopt to convince themselves of the “I deserve this/ was driven to it/ am not a bad person for doing this/ must make FourandFive believe it’s nothing at all costs” self-lying.
You know what you are dealing with now with your eyes open and know what you want to see going forward, with boundaries set to protect yourself and a zero tolerance attitude. You can do no more than that, it’s up to him now, so don’t feel like you have to justify that here.

I have to say that I feel sorry for the children if you take him back. I've been a teenager in the middle of a similar situation and it is excruciating to have to be part of it. They won't thank you for it.

Christmas was especially dire with forced civility and talk of 'new beginnings' from our parents, while we just prayed they would separate.

If I were you, I'd educate myself on narcissism and ways to deal with it. Your husband has shown a lot of narcissistic traits. His lack of personal accountability and self awareness and inability to hear the feedback he was getting has blocked real change. Is there now true remorse and empathy for the people he's damaged?

You've been the adoring mirror during your marriage that provided a lot of the validation he needs, but when he met this EAP, she provided a new supply of that and he was unwilling to give that up. But she backed off for reasons and only you know if your husband's email was performative to get back into the home. Now you've seen him in a less flattering light and see some flaws, those spots on the mirror might prevent you from being the same prop of his self esteem that he needs. If he doesn't truly get why his emotional affair was so wrong, he's not changed and you're the backup. He's also high risk for this happening again.

That's what you're calling addiction. His intense need for validation. He's addicted to how people in his life make him feel that aligns with his view of himself.

Only you know if this is the right decision for you or not.

One important thing: Don’t blame your children if they end up resenting their father. After everything that happened, and depending on their ages, they probably understood more than you think. Kids and teen can grow resentful toward him, and toward you, if you insist everything is fine or teach them that they should tolerate narcissistic or harmful behaviour.

What happened in your marriage is one thing and your choice indeed, but their relationship with their father needs to be handled honestly. Don’t gaslight them about their feelings. Try to separate the dynamics, because trust is damaged if this keeps happening, and you could unintentionally teach them to repeat the same patterns of tolerating a partner like that, or that behaving like the father is alright . Just be aware of that. If they are adults then to be honest with them, separating the relationships clearly, and letting them have space to feel whatever they need, so they won't lost respect for the father and neither for you, too.

Thank you for coming back to the thread OP and I hope your father has good test results.
It has taken your H an absolute age to get to the point of explicitly ending things with the "friend" and his message sounds so self righteous. A simple "I don't want to be in touch any more" or just block and ghost would have sufficed. He just sounds so pompous, if I was the woman it would incense me. Perhaps that is what the point of it is, though. She is as nothing, next to his pure and superior family life.
I hope you can get back to enjoying your life with him.
There is no way he would end your marriage himself, he's got too much to lose. Reputation, assets, home, kids. I wouldn't take him "not ending it" as anything other than him looking after himself.