Something isn't right thread #2

[FourAndFive]

Thanks so much for all your help and support. I can't believe the first thread is full - there isn’t a huge amount to update on right now, but I am looking forward to the future with my head held high, whatever the outcome. I'll keep posting.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5391850-something-isnt-right-emotional-affair-or-just-friends?page=1

@FourAndFive " The counsellor felt it came from a moment of intense emotion"

The counsellor has been great so far but this is totally letting him off the hook. I would raise this again in therapy, saying that it very effectively cowed you into backing off from your boundaries - as which was the intention - and that you are still cowed by it.

It is cruel to you, and completely unacceptable.

Given his ENDLESS self-absorption and self-indulgence so far, I bet he has not apologised to you in any meaningful way. Probably "I'm sorry BUT..."

I agree.

It can only be one or the other - a serious ideation which needs significant intervention or a weapon of power, control and domination.

I am struggling to see this middle ground of ‘intense emotion’ - that has been decided on. Seems a whitewash and minimisation. It also doesn’t hold him accountable to the impact of his threatening words on you and your children.

To be honest I have never come across anyone or read anywhere of such a phenomenon. IMHO it comes back to his intention for issuing that threat - and that was to scare and bully you to get what he wanted from you.

Maybe you bend because of the subconscious psychological impact on you of him threatening suicide when he thought he wouldn't get what he wanted. He was either serious, in which case he should be getting himself more than marriage counselling, or he was bluffing, which is so hideously manipulative and abusive that it should not be buried in amongst the rest of the shit he pulled.

I so agree with this.
I would continue to challenge this.
I would quote the above that a suicide threat is the go to of men wanting to control that are not getting their way.
This is EXACTLY the situation here.
He's used to you bending.

Is he happy that you share with family, friends and children that he threatened suicide over her and his hobby/ obsession if you didn't bend again.

I wonder what a domestic abuse charity would respond to suchba question?

You do know its ok to challenge the MC?
They are NOT god.

I would NEVER get over the threat of suicide in these circumstances.

You will NEVER be safe in this relationship again, now that you know how low he will stooped to manipulate and control you.

So often when women eventually emerge from the FOG and almost cult like control of these relationships, they look back with a searing clarity that the relationship only worked while they totally bent to the will of a partner like yours, even if it appeared to be via a velvet glove.

The control and manipulation was always there they realised.
A loving good relationship on HIS terms.

You say he has blocked her and doesn’t see her anymore but what has he told her about this? If he is planning on being civil when they inevitably meet surely he’s given her an explanation as to why he has cut her out of his life? His explanation will be a good test of his understanding of his part of the breakdown of your relationship.

I wonder if that is actually the truth? Maybe she has actually blocked him once he made a move after announcing he had left his wife and family home and was now available…….

This gullible 20 something young woman was more likely totally spooked by the delusional, grandiose, entitled old fool and or warned off by her family who seemed to be suspicious enough to turn up to check it all out in the early days.

He may well have groomed this young woman and her family in to believing that he was the stable unthreatening family guy - even using his wife as a prop - whilst all along lusting after her and finally leaving his family because being in her presence (and eventually in her pants in his fantasy) was worth more than life itself…..

- the MC will remind me to use the word passionate instead. I wholeheartedly disagree.
Reminding you to use the word passionate instead of obsessed is minimising how it appeared/appears to you.

You do this because you're used to it. This is likely your pattern throughout your marriage, you were the adoring spouse who went along with his wishes and still reflected his image of himself back. You're wanting to reconcile and you know that you, that went along and didn't set a strong boundary, is what you have to go back to in order for that to happen.

You've moved past that person though. You changed in response to his actions and behaviors. I think you'll find going back to that adoring, boundary less spouse to be like putting on shoes that no longer fit.

He's already pushing that boundary when it comes to his EAP. Of course he has to be civil, he's a "good" man. 🤮

He should be having zero to do with her and no contact whatsoever. Their relationship crossed so many boundaries he threatened suicide over her. He's just going to inch past those boundaries if she allows it.

Ask him if his friend he's staying with has been making noises about him moving out.

Your counselor is mistaken in policing your word choice for you. They don't get to pick what words you use to describe your situation. Tell them that. That's denying your truth and forcing a bit of dishonesty in counseling on you.

Your counselor is mistaken in policing your word choice for you. They don't get to pick what words you use to describe your situation. Tell them that. That's denying your truth and forcing a bit of dishonesty in counseling on you.

I agree they have reached their professional limitation in this situation by denying / invalidating the intensity of your own emotional experience seemingly to assuage their own personal feelings of discomfort here.

No on ‘has’ to attend a particular hobby group or event or see or be civil to particular people to retain their social standing, personal qualities or self confidence. On ‘allowing’ him to see the object of his affection you’re buying into his ‘all important hobby and persona ’ rubbish, even setting aside his emotional infidelity.

The counsellor may call it ‘passion’, I guess it’s subjective, but to me it is about whether it impacts negatively on family relationships etc. A bit like the line between someone drinking much more than their partner - incompatibility, incidents of problem drinking - impacting negatively on others (eg injury, mess, fallings out) vs an outright alcohol problem.

your H’s behaviour regarding his hobby seems a fair way along the spectrum of being a problem.

Over the years I have given up several hobbies I was once passionate about and wished to continue - two physical, for health reasons, three creative, for life reasons! In one case I had to miss exciting and costly events with travel. It wasn’t nice but hey ho! No excuses for your H’s bullshit.

I completely agree the MC has overstepped by telling you that your language is wrong.

They don't get to tell you what words you can or cannot use.
How fxxking controlling of them.

Perhaps emailing them directly your concern and discomfort that they feel they should do this.

Your language is your truth.

People don't threaten to commit suicide over their passion for a hobby and a person doing it.

She is giving legitimacy to his threat of suicide because of his "passion" which is deeply disappointing and disturbing, considering threats of suicide are highly linked to control and abuse in a relationship.

Challenge her narrative and show her and him that you are not a walkover to be dictated to.

Suicide threats are hardcore, the biggest deal of big deals outside murder threats. They involve severe bodily harm intended to cause death.

If he was serious, he should have been assessed immediately and gotten placed accordingly by the evaluating psychiatrist.

If not, the threat of bodily harm was used as manipulation to get you in line. It was the most intense level of control. It's abuse.

I also think this has been really minimized. That your MC didn't hear there was a suicide threat and recommend he get individual counseling, I'm kind of shocked. We don't ignore or minimize that here.

Your counselor is uncomfortable with your word choice and you're allowed to disagree and challenge them on that word policing. They're letting their feelings intrude instead of giving you the space, which is supposed to be safe, to express yourself.

Fear is such a natural response and it's obvious you feel you are in an impossible situation.

It's so hard when you're the one doing all the work.

I'm wondering that whilst you're protecting him, who's protecting you?

Your comment about "hard boundaries" and not having to have them before, resonated with me. I know you're all in for saving your marriage regardless of the toll it takes, but I just could not tolerate it if I felt I had to be on guard for boundary-crossing all the time. It would be no life!
You are not some kind of enforcement officer, you are a wife! No hard enforcement should be needed, a relationship is meant to be life enhancing. You feel so conflicted because you're in a horrible situation and there is no fix while your H still needs hard boundaries.

Yes to this. Whilst there have been practical changes, less of the hobby, not talking to or seeing her, living apart that have helped you to some extent, how differently are you actually feeling ? Are you emotionally in a safer, or happier space? Are you recovering your trust and confidence ( albeit it’s a process ). I am not sure you are, or can given his ongoing denial of what he has done. Not to mention you are waiting for the ( apparently inevitable) point when they meet up again, and the consequences. I would find this torturous.

You love him, it’s colouring everything you think and do which is understandable if not necessarily helpful. I am not sure that it’s the same for him.

There’s a point where all the talking won’t help. Where only actions will. You have been beyond accommodating. It’s entirely reasonable for you to tell him exactly what you want. An end to the hobby and absolutely no contact. Counselling can continue together or apart if you want, but this is the least you need, imo to progress. Otherwise what’s he really done to change? Other than breaking off the contact ( till it restarts ). Of course the danger is he’ll refuse. He may even go to her. But you’ll know now rather than later. You won’t be waiting for it to restart or someone else to pop up.

Or of course, he’ll do what you ask. You would yourself wouldn’t you? So why do you expect and accept less from him.

@FourAndFive I also absolutely disagree with your MC.
This presents more like an addiction than someone who is ‘passionate’ about something. Earlier in the thread you outlined the criteria for describing something as an addiction and it applies fully here.
Saying ‘passionate’ minimises the import of his behaviour and suggests that his attitude to his hobby is somehow to be admired and not complained about.
People claim that calling this an addiction makes it easier for you to bear and exculpates him from any responsibility, however it does not. Addicts still have personal responsibility to face up to the addiction and work hard to break it. They know what they are doing is wrong and unhelpful, they know they shouldn’t do it, but being addicted only makes this harder for them than non-addicts, not impossible or something that can excuse the behaviour by suggesting it is as completely out of their control. It is controllable,addiction is reversible, even though it is very, very hard for addicts to gain control and self-regulate. ‘Passionate’ suggests an “I love doing this but I can take it or leave it” attitude and your MC already knows about his manipulative suicide threats once he thought his hobby was off the table. Addicts really are stellar, Olympic-standard liars and manipulators.
I do think that he started to cool it down when the shit hit the fan. I then think she didn’t like it after all he’d said plus gifts etc so possibly gave him the cold shoulder. Was it to jolt him back into the former intensity of the relationship? Who knows.
I re-read the thread and here’s what I think might have happened and how it would relate to his current stance:
His cooling down led to her cold shoulder. Both of these things seem to be letting him think that logically this is what you wanted, so all is now well, right?
No, not without a full reassurance to you that he knows it was wrong and exactly how he hurt you, a full apology for that, plus a promise that it, and nothing remotely like it, will ever happen again and he understands that the marriage will be over if it does.
I think this then needs following up with a full explanation to her that he knows the whole thing was wrong, then telling her won’t be contacting her any more, ever, out of love and respect to you, his wife. And you get to read it, approve it and watch him send it/ say it over the phone to her. Whatever is your preferred method, not his. You also get to see her reply, if any.
A big line needs drawing for her and he should be the one to actively do it, with you as a witness.

Having a good cry this afternoon.

You are all right.

@Noshadelamp No one is protecting me. My own two feet do feel pretty stable most of the time, and then it's quicksand. I know I'll be okay, though.

I'd assumed during the sessions it was better to use more neutral language, so simply say I do not agree, but will use passionate if that helps. I wont allow that policing any more.

@outerspacepotato could it be because there has been no 'recent' threat? We're asked at the start of each session if there are any thoughts of self harm at all. The answer is always no. I do agree with you all, I seem to be the only person in this trio who finds it completely unacceptable. I will bring it up again - it is unresolved. But there are so many things unresolved for me. So much noise.

OP, I think you are incredibly brave and resilient in dealing with all this.
I do feel that you are so used to compromising yourself, your values etc that it’s hard to break that cycle. You are seeing yourself change through therapy because you want this therapy to work.
I also think that every time you have compromised you have that niggling feeling of resentment because you know you are not wrong and your feelings are valid and you shouldn’t have to compromise.
there will be both good and bad days as you navigate through this shitshow he has caused .

@Thewookiemustgo I have avoided using that word addicted on the thread, because explaining to others was a lot. It holds true. He is addicted to it.

You are spot on as usual.

I think this then needs following up with a full explanation to her that he knows the whole thing was wrong, then telling her won’t be contacting her any more, ever, out of love and respect to you, his wife. And you get to read it, approve it and watch him send it/ say it over the phone to her. Whatever is your preferred method, not his. You also get to see her reply, if any.

This is exactly what I need. No grey area. No room for confusion.

I don't have to bend.

I agree! The suicide threat is either very serious and indicates the dh had a serious break with functional thinking or it was a more or less conscious deliberate manipulation. Either way it should not be minimized and dismissed.

Just another heartfelt thank you from me.

I'll come back to the thread more often. It gives me wings.

could it be because there has been no 'recent' threat? We're asked at the start of each session if there are any thoughts of self harm at all. The answer is always no. I do agree with you all, I seem to be the only person in this trio who finds it completely unacceptable. I will bring it up again - it is unresolved. But there are so many things unresolved for me. So much noise.

Probably because your counselor has clocked it as manipulation rather than a psychiatric emergency.

But.

That should bring up the gigantic issue of using threats of bodily harm to coerce you into a decision you would not have freely made. It should bring up manipulation and abuse, because using suicide to manipulate a partner is abusive. Threats of suicide change everything and deepen the severity of the issues. It's not done casually or lightly.

I don't agree with going along with your counselor's choice of wording. Words mean things. One of the basics of therapy and counseling is establishing a safe space and trust where clients can freely express themselves. Choosing the words you are allowed to use smacks of reframing what you're expressing to what the counselor wants to hear or has decided on and what that does is shut you down and negate your point of view.

"I feel shut down when you tell me what word to use. "

You express yourself well. You can tell the counselor just what you feel when they ask you to change words. It's also minimizing his overwhelming absorbtion in his hobby and the EAP and the actions resulting from that. Addiction is a good description.

You are doing so amazingly. I was going to say it's such a complicated situation, but then I thought actually, what would happen if you inagined there was no complication, what then?

Would it help to work backwards from "this is what I want and need" rather than "this is where we are (with all his protestations, denials, the excuses etc).

Please prioritise your own rest and replenishment. You sound so shattered as you have been holding this for so long. Do you have the energy to book yourself in for a massage or can you find it in yourself despite how stoical you are to just text a friend or a parent to say you need a hug? Whatever it is that brings you some release.

You might also find that you need some individual therapy at this time and put the MC on hold for now if it’s draining and unproductive or unsupportive of your critical needs right now.

Please remember that your DH is like a pig in shit and very fulfilled as he has always indulged his own needs for years with his solo uncompromising lifestyle choices - his obsessional hobby and EA delusion - he has prioritised himself always. Even living out of the home for the last few months has freed him up of domestic duties and the daily bump and grind of corralling teenagers. His life has been easy and potentially care free. His concerns don’t seem to be holding it all together for his children and busting a gut to save his marriage.

You are the one who has been left deeply injured here - whilst during this time he has been released to indulge his obsessions / passions / fantasies unfettered - he must be feeling very fulfilled and refreshed. Remember that and please focus on taking care of yourself to heal - because there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of this having even crossed his mind that he should be relieving the suffering and emotional injury he has inflicted on you.

I agree with a lot of @Madchest's post. It's time to fill your cup rather than his.

I think going away with him at this point is another erosion of the boundaries you've set and would end up with you filling his cup. He's not filling yours, he's done some work with EAP but she started the distance and he still wants contact. That should be completely off the table but he's trying to negotiate and weasel here.