Something isn't right - emotional affair or just friends?

[FourAndFive]

Name changed for this. It's a bit of a blur, and long, apologies in advance.

I need help and/or a slap to either wake me up to an emotional affair and huge gaslighting from my DH (47), or to help me deal with a shiny new friendship my DH of 24 years has.

He's hidden a friendship from me that has been going on for nearly a year. He has never, ever done this before, and has been a completely open book in all our years together. The last five years have been so good for us emotionally, and our relationship felt solid as far as I was concerned.

He has a hobby that he is obsessed (not lightheartedly obsessed, genuinely obsessed) with, and while doing this hobby he meets people from time to time. He would usually mention these people in passing, and I'm happy he's happy, so all good. About 6-7 weeks ago, he started to mention at funny times how he was meeting 'great people', and 'so many people to chat to' and 'I know so many people now' while he's doing his hobby and I thought yeah, great, but it was out of tone, and quite odd.

Fast forward a week or so, and he keeps name dropping and then tells me that I have to meet someone (single F28), because I'd really like her, and she does the hobby a bit more than he does, and has done it all over the world and how nice she is etc. and so I found myself meeting her for a few hours across two days, alongside some of her family members, who all knew about my DH and the shared hobby and thought how sweet it was... It was so very odd, and I couldn't put my finger on why, and I was so uncomfortable.

To cut a very long story short, it turns out they've been regularly meeting up since late last year, texting multiple times a day, including gifts and planning things around their hobby... I've since seen most of their messages. I have never seen my DH speak to anyone like he speaks to her (except me). He is a man who I know has strong moral boundaries, and keeps a safe distance from other women, doesn't encourage and is completely platonic with all of his female friends - which is clearly no longer the case! There is no 'sex' chat, and he talks about us occasionally (we have 2DC) but it's overly affectionate/mutual appreciation and excitement for finding each other - and I've hated reading them. (I asked him for phone access after all the minimising he was doing, and he said he'd deleted all messages - but he forgot to remove them from his deleted items, so I restored them. I know this is a massive red flag.)

I've told him that I need him to cut all contact with her - but he had serious meltdown (talk of CS), insists it's just friends and that I should trust him. I am finding this impossible, considering the lengths he's taken to hide her until recently. He hasn't done anything to reduce contact, and has even initiated meeting her multiple times, even though I specifically asked him not to. I know they met today for the hobby, and I know they've text each other, because he is telling me - at my request. But I shouldn't worry, because he loves me blah blah. I just want a bit of respite from it so I can get my head around his utterly bizarre behaviour, and consider everything that's happened. It's so unlike him.

I feel sick. The trust isn't there. I feel anxious all the time. I know what I should be doing, but I don't want him to be unhappy at the same time - especially if it is actually platonic. Thoughts please wise MN women! How do I navigate this shit show?

So sorry for you.. went through something similar a few years ago- without the “honesty” you got or evidence on phone- started with a
’hobby’ too.
denial was his best friend so now divorced and he has a 3 year old with her. (He’s 56!)
I tolerated probably 20 years of cheating if I am honest-things we do to keep children in a traditional family-for all the wrong reasons.
the stress nearly finished me-don’t put up with
a situation that isn’t going to change and you’re not put first-life is too short to live like that. Good luck 🤞

"I don't want to cry when I speak- in anger or sadness-just not there yet"

@FourAndFive OP, when you are speaking to your DH about this, try to imagine you are speaking about someone else in the third person, as if you are describing another person's feelings, detach yourself. Grey rock, it works a treat, it will baffle him. Hopefully it will help you to be unemotional, especially when he tries to gaslight. You've got this.

Just sending you some love OP. And to applaud you and the posters here for all the honesty. I was victim of an emotional affair a few years ago - I posted here but I was pregnant at the time and it was distressing to be advised to terminate so I got it deleted - but I kept the post and screen grabbed it to refer to. It gives me comfort still. We are out the other side of it but as others have said, its been a really long road and its not one I would advise taking as there has been a fundamental loss of respect for me, which we both know and acknowledge, and which has left both of us somewhat disappointed by our lot. I have forgiven him but the dynamic of being the one who has decided to do this has altered both of our lives and we struggle still. You sound wise and loving. Good luck whatever you decide. Xx

It’s an awful situation for you to be in.My heart goes out to you he’s being a silly middle aged man.
wonder how he’d feel if you were seeing a young man and was emotionally dependent on them?
could you talk to the woman and say he’s obsessing about her?If it continues it will end your marriage?does she see him as a father figure.?
Does she want him full time?
would he go to relate?if not then go on your own to get N impartial opinion on how you feel.

Honestly OP you are doing the right thing, No more counselling or never-ending talking or Relate etc. It will make no difference until he sees the truth of it.
He’s classic deluded midlife crisis and only a huge kick up the arse will change this, if it’s ever going to change. And btw you don’t have to wait for or expect a change either if you’ve had enough.

My husband was a complete and utter arsehole in his early fifties but soon snapped out of it when the consequences threatened to hit. He trashed his life for nothing ultimately and would be the first to admit that none of it was worth it.

Don’t engage with any of it further, just tell him how it should be and if he can’t see it let the consequences play out .
He’ll see it then alright.

Went through similar a few years back. DH was bored during the first Covid lockdown and turned to Facebook to “keep in touch”. Was sent a friend request from his first love who had dumped him at her 21st birthday party 35 yrs earlier. He did tell me they had friended each other and I did suggest that it may not be a clever thing to do. It became a bit intense and having noticed all the changes, the funniest one being my almost 60 yr old husband trying to do a mirror selfie, I read the convo between them and realised where things were heading.
It all blew up but because we were in lockdown I couldn’t ask him to leave. He also didn’t understand how it was cheating.

We stuck it out, we had no choice, but to his credit he endured months of my meltdowns. He could see them brewing and would make time to talk it through.

I was diagnosed with breast cancer 12 mnths after it all blew up. It wasn’t planned, obviously but was the massive wake up call for him to work out what was important.

I did take great pleasure introducing myself to the OW who claimed it was all innocent friends and that there was no harm in it. DH stopped communicating but didn’t unfriend her. This was at my request because I had noticed that she had been visiting our neighbourhood regularly, she lives nearly an hour away and has no connection to the area. She still regularly visits our local pub, not exactly a tourist pub, so being able to see if she was still hanging around further reinforced the fact that she wasn’t after just friendship.

Funnily enough this has actually freaked DH out. I think he was ok with the fantasy but after her acid response to my polite message, to think carefully before engaging, he remembered why it hadn’t worked out the first time round.

Sadly my DH had a stroke not long after I finished treatment for cancer and is not the man he was, he is actually nicer version in some respects, our life has changed but with both of us facing serious health issues it has brought us much closer. I have learned to trust him and the dynamic in our relationship has changed. It would have been easy to walk away but the compassion and love he showed through my cancer journey restored my faith and trust in him. It would have been very easy for either of us to walk away in the circumstances but there is still a very strong bond and I can’t imagine life without him.

Stroke or not, if he does it again there will be no second chance.

Hmmm, it's early hours here & insomnia has kicked in. @FourAndFive I have read many comments by posters & all of your own.

Two comments you made have landed hard. The first is that he has gaslight you before over other matters & the 'CS' comment is horrendous. The second is that he has gone to your own father, set up a narrative to his own benefit & borrowed authority from your own father to carry on as he pleases AND you feel you cannot challenge this due to your parent's ill health?

Have I got that last bit right? If your parent is so unwell, why is he dumping his shit on them? He cares only for himself.

In effect, he has boxed you in.

Another poster asked you to look again at the linger term dynamics in your relationship. I second this.

This man is a manipulator par excellence. He has been doing this all along, he knows you very well. You are just catching up.

If he goes away, have the locks changed. Get a quote now. Granted, this is for show as he has the right to enter his own home, but if he crosses the next line by going away, you need draw some stiffer boundaries.

Going to your father is that one extra step too far.

Consult the solicitor now. Go for someone with a strong reputation for giving good advice & when instructed gets great results. You don't have to like them, they have to be very good at their job.

Yes go on the overnight trip & take a friend or one or both kids 😄

Excellent points & advice here PP, especially your point on him seeking OPs elderly, sick father’s “permission” to continue this EA. There’s something extra disgusting about the husband doing that …

@FourAndFive your thread is nearly full of.., will you be starting a new one so we can all continue to support you? I hope you are ok today x

Did he take note??

This is funny but it really never, ever is.

It’s also never a female version of Dave either.

I hope that you find a way out soon, OP this sounds absolutely horrendous.
Are you going to the hobby overnight?
Are you going to speak privately to the female friend and explain what this is doing to your family and ask her to back away from the friendship?

I am not trying to make light of this at all but the whole situation strangely reminds me of that time Ronnie Wood thought it was ok to turn up at his home he shared with Jo Wood, but with the girl he'd been drinking with all day, Ekaterina something, in tow, like it was the most natural thing in the world.

I met my ex's affair partner, he talked about her all the time. Telling me how I'd really get on with her. he acted like a child with a new friend he wanted his mum to meet.

He did. I honestly don't think he'd considered what getting involved with a young childless woman would mean. He was rewinding the clock 15 years, except this time he was looking at dealing with young children in his 40s / 50s whilst splitting his time and resources with our children.
It definitely provided him some clarity.
Me too tbh. I'd been feeling rubbish comparing my 40something self to his ap. But I realised I'd been where she is already. I had more to offer my dh or someone new if that's where life was taking me.
I also asked him how he'd feel sitting around with the 30 year old husband and boyfriends of his ap. Or leaving her with the 40 something wife's of his mates.
It made him feel really silly...

@Angrymum22 what a tough way to find out what’s really important in life. I’m so glad your love carried you through such a horrendous time for you both.
Facing potential loss really does show you how much you value your life and who the important people are in it.
I had a similar experience to your husband years back when Friends Reunited started up. A guy I had a serious relationship with at university got in touch on FR totally out of the blue, hadn’t seen or heard from him in twenty years! He told me he was married with two kids but that didn’t stop him apparently thinking about me and messaging me and asking to meet up. I was married with one child by then. It blew my mind and I was pissed off with myself for how much, if I’m honest, I got a rush from the initial contact, the flattery etc but I knew it was just my ego enjoying the attention. Had I pursued it for the dopamine hit that it was, my life and his would have quite deservedly gone down the toilet just for a bit of flattery and ego stroking. I told him to get real and get lost.
That’s why OP’s husband needs to give his head a wobble, he’s got carried away with some new shiny thing giving him attention, makes him think he’s twenty again and God’s gift to women. He’s hooked to the dopamine hit, huge infatuation and obsession and it will only go one way unless he pulls the plug on it.
Real life can’t compete with novelty, hence the prevalence of affairs, most are an exciting novelty ‘holiday’ from real life mistaken for ‘love’, but novelties can wear off and he’ll long for the stable, solid real life and enduring love that OP provides him with.
I think he should read your story and have a long hard look at himself.
I wish you both well and many more happy years together.

@Thewookiemustgo absolutely correct - when life gets a bit Groundhog Day someone attractive coming along and giving you an ego boost and showing interest is quite intoxicating and it takes a lot of backbone to resist that hormonal boost - I think that’s the thing with affairs emotional or otherwise , the idea that only people in shit relationships succumb to them is for the birds which isn’t a great thing I know, but it’s the truth -

This. My ex's lover invited us both to Sunday Lunch.

It was at this lunch that I was able to observe the dynamic between them (doe eyes at each other. 'In jokes' that only they understood, behaviour like two 14yo kids) and also that of her DH who was thick as shit, bovine and completely absorbed in the football. A fact that my then DP and his OW were taking full advantage of. It was a vomit inducing charade that kept replaying in my head for the months following.

The PP and and anyone that thinks if they were at it, the last thing they would do is invite OP along, I believe are wrong. They know OP has kids too so in the (endless) absence of her husband, she is unlikely to be able to attend shit unless she goes to yet more effort and finds a babysitter.

These two know exactly what they are doing playing these mind games and in the unlikely event OP did attend, they would likely barely look at each other throughout the whole time she was there.

I agree with this. If OP had this conversation with her parents with as little emotion as she can in that moment (so as not to cause distress), it would take the guessing and worry away.

It's not a great convo for the phone but under these particular circumstances, it might be better as OP is more likely to be able to compose herself and come off more neutral on the phone than she would face to face. The conversation would have a start, a middle and an end also, which helps.

@Allthegoodonesareg0ne my husband’s AP was 17 years his junior and very attractive. My then 53 year old self, despite not looking bad for my age, took a huge self esteem nosedive for what was thankfully a short period, until I realised what a complete clichéd twat he had made of himself.
One of our neighbour’s wives suddenly left him a few years ago and it was obvious why. Within days he’d moved in a much younger woman, they had a baby the following year. He’s in his sixties now. His kids from his first marriage were teens and early twenties when their mum moved out, they went with her. Her life was freeing up and I used to hear what was then his new toddler screaming on his drive at silly o’ clock in the morning on their way to nursery. I would inwardly chuckle that his ex wife must be retired by now and having a nice undisturbed lie in somewhere whilst her sixty odd year old ex husband chased a yelling recalcitrant toddler across his front lawn at 7am.
My husband knows he dodged a huge bullet. When he woke up and saw the reality of it he was totally ashamed and embarrassed at what an arse he’d been and disgusted at himself for how much he’d hurt me and himself just for an ego boost.
This stuff is depressingly common, ageing men and women getting hooked on long past teenage infatuation feelings, sparked by a bit of attention and flattery.
“I still got it” are probably the most dangerous four words to go through anybody’s head in middle age. Pathetic.

Spot on. It’s absolutely not only people in shit relationships, we weren’t either. It was exactly that, getting hit on by a very much younger attractive woman was like crack cocaine to my stupid husband. No excuse, he should have ignored it, but he wasn’t unhappy at the time, he just couldn’t resist what was going on and pursued instead of ignoring. Ego overrode sense.

I loved raising my kids but now they are older and more independent I enjoy the freedom that comes with that. I also enjoy the company of others my age. I have no desire to go back to being 30 again, nor to raise more kids.
These men are so blinkered by the flattery and ego boost it takes a bit of cold water to make them see the reality of it.
I was out with my dh earlier this month and a group of women were celebrating a 30th birthday. It was the kind of evening I would have loved to at that age but the contrast between them and what we enjoy hit my husband hard - he commented on how ridiculous he had been to think he would have fit in that world again or that he could have been satisfied in a relationship with someone at that stage of life.
It still baffles me they don't have the foresight to realise this before..

And this is why the OP and anyone else in her shoes, needs to tell everyone what they have been up to as soon as she has decided there is no going back. It takes away the romance of their relationship if people they respect, love or have to work with, know they are just a pair of sleazy dirtbags.

With my ex, the first thing I did was ring his boss who I knew well. He told me that my ex had taken OW to the works Xmas party and had already spread the word that we had split up with me months before meeting the OW.

That just proved that he had been shagging her for months longer than I was aware of. I told his boss that that was not true and I had only just found out about her. He apologised to me for not calling but he had been taken in by my ex entirely.

I lost that one but I got the house. She had stolen loads of my clothes and shoes and my dead mothers jewellery though.

She had stolen loads of my clothes and shoes and my dead mothers jewellery though.
Bloody hell !

I've started a second thread. I'm overwhelmed at the support and the time everyone has taken to post. I hope I've done the links right.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/5395906-something-isnt-right-thread-2