Help - Sex and Touch being withheld

[HusbandAndDad44]

Dad here. 44yo. My wife of 13 years weaponises sex, and more recently, touch. She always has to some degree I guess but it has gotten unbearable. She’s aware I have a need for touch and have a high sex drive compared to her. She basically keeps it from me in a controlling way. She knows I need contact like occasional cuddles too.

To start with (before marriage) we had more frequent sex and straight after marriage it seemed to be only when she had the desire to. My advances would be regularly and firmly blocked in no uncertain terms.

Since then things have gotten much worse, with certain acts being withheld indefinitely, and frequency diminishing more and more.
Now, we have vanilla sex only, very limited foreplay (again, her choice) and probably once a month or often less, for 20mins or less - only when she chooses, and when we do it seems to come with reluctance, and ‘conditions’ attached.
“Let’s be quick” or “we have a 10minute window” or “no not here” or “not like that”

She never talks about sex with me or has any reference to sexuality in our daily lives (literally never). She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”

Over the years basic intimacy like cuddling has been taken away. I like a cuddle at night and as I sleep, but this has eroded to even just the hope of a two minute cuddle before we sleep (only).

Just last night we almost had sex but when I started to gently play with her breast and nipple, she got visibly annoyed and shouted at me for doing it the wrong way. It was “too sore” although I wasn’t rough.
This lead to her storming out and preferring to sleep in another room rather than engage when I was trying to talk to her and express I feel she never has time for me.

Anyway, I was unusually angered at work today - just as much about the refusal to talk about it and the assumption she’s right (again), as about the no sex thing.
I decided not to go straight home after work for a change, opting to go for a meal by myself and then an evening showing at the cinema after and thought to myself I won’t talk to her during this time.
It’s now 10:30pm and I’ve had 6 texts and 20 missed calls.

What has my life become? I feel utterly unwanted and deeply unsatisfied and alone.
I still love her and find her very attractive but my awareness of all the other selfish sides of her and ignoring basically all my needs (I think deliberately) makes it like ongoing torture to want to continue on like this.
I’ve tried the communication thing repeatedly - both sit down and chat and also things like ‘couples quizzes’ and things like that. Each time I’m shut down quickly as if I’m the problem, it strangely that there’s no problem, or the issue is deflected and an argument about an unrelated topic begins.

Help and advice needed please! In particular from a woman’s perspective, thanks

Second the above - The lack of housework would be a little offputting for me - as would the desire for longer lasting sex. My ex used to go for ages, it was a pain- literally - everything would ache, and dry out and be sore - and he would just be there see-sawing away, moaning like it was the greatest thing on earth while i was bored out of my skull after the first 20 minutes, and calculating how long it was till I had to get up and go to work.

Honestly OP - just take sex off the able entierly for a few mon ths - use your hand, and whatever fantasies you have so sort yourself out for now.

Even if she won't talk to you about it, just tell her that you are doing so, and would like to concentrate on the other parts of your marridge for a while, make it clear that nothing that happens touchwise for a few months will lead t you pushing for sex.

The elephant in the room is of course monogamy. I don't understand why it is held in such high esteem by people (of both sexes) that are not interested in having sex.

more responses (thanks):

@MiloMinderbinder925
What you describe above is not enthusiastic consent, it's someone doing the absolute bare minimum to keep you quiet. Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you. She wants to get the act over with as quickly as possible and she's not participating ie she's lying there and thinking of England.

Yes, it does feel like this, I agree. It's not always like that but it's ringing true with me I'm sad to say.

@MakeMineADietCoke
I’m a woman in a sexless marriage. I miss it and it makes me sad sometimes but you can actually live without it, so it’s not a need.

Any background to what happened, or advice on how that part of your life adapted?

@womanwithissues
why can't sex be a need? Although to be accurate the OP is talking about intimacy as much as sex. I would call sex a need for many people because it's very important to them. It is to me. It's just an unmet need right now and that has a very negative impact on me. And the OP clearly.

Yes I feel the physical side, both sexual and not are slowly disappearing over time and having a very negative impact.
I had a migraine after a long day at work several days ago and got into bed, where my wife already was, hoping for just a cuddle, but she was scrolling her phone and said it was her downtime, so I just got back up and had an aspirin instead.

@2catsandhappy
Being forced into being celibate whilst in a marriage is the main reason I divorced my exh
For whatever reason, your wife no longer enjoys having sex with you. Maybe a separation would suit you both. She would be relieved to not have a physical relationship and you would be free to look for a loving intimate partner. It does sound like her resentment is growing.
I would rather sit in a cinema than in a house where I was begrudingly tolerated.
Could you take up hobbies outside the home? Build up friendships and interests? I know how lonely it be when you are trying to keep a marriage going by yourself.
You can still be a wonderful involved dad and co parent.

This made me quite emotional reading it. I do have a few hobbies but not a ton of time, maybe I need to explore those a bit more.
Thank you for the nice words.

@Luckyingame
Firstly, OP, sorry that I don't have much sympathy towards you.
Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you and would probably be happy if you stopped asking altogether.
Now from my perspective.
When I turned 42, /child free, no work/ I stopped having sex with my /significantly older, relevant/ darling of a husband. We have been married for 20 years virtually without problems, I kept secret that sex always felt more or less disgusting to me.
My marriage is very lucrative, I'm not exactly destitute myself, either /relevant/.
I offered my husband and amicable divorce or an open marriage, which he flat out refused, citing that we as a couple are far more important than sex, he's very healthy and would still be sexually active.
Now at 46, I'd rather very happily live alone, than have sex ever again. He's aware of that.
Sorry for the essay, but I strongly suspect that your wife feels very similar.
Amicable divorce/split, open marriage, if you cannot live without it.
Marriage is two people trying to sort out problems, which wouldn't exist if one remained single.

I think that's actually a very balanced response, thanks.
Maybe she would be happier if I stopped asking and trying to initiate, it's something I do much less now that I know I'll likely be rejected.
I'm interested to hear that you made it work together, so you both chose the celibacy option then?
Would you say your communication with your husband is good? Was that an easy conversation to have or did you do it in phases?

@MyQuirkyTraybake
Sex happens "only when she had the desire to". As opposed to what, when you demand? She's your wife, not a sex slave.
"when we do it seems to come with reluctance" sounds like she feels coerced to have sex with you - which is rape.
"She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”" have you considered that not everyone needs sex to be anything but loving and pleasurable?
"It was “too sore” although I wasn’t rough." Maybe listen to her since it's her body and she knows how I feels?! She left the room because she doesn't trust you to listen.
And if she doesn't want to cuddle anymore I could understand - you sound like you believe you're entitled to sex, even if she isn't in the mood.
Your perspective and attitude is lacking respect and needs serious adjustment to save this marriage.
You're lucky to still have a wife imo.

Wow, you are leaping to a lot of conclusions that I simply didn't say or do. I've in no way raped or even been close to anything non-consensual with my wife.
A flat 0%, not even close and nor have I thought about it.

@XelaM
She probably has the ick as you're so needy with all the "cuddles" you so need. Ick

Well if you don't like cuddles with your other half, or other types of non-sexual contact that's up to you.
I don't get why you felt the need to reply to my message saying so, and calling it ick though.

@Eric1964
Most men are decent people. Most men work hard for their families. Most men do their share of parenting and housework. Some don't, and fuck 'em. We desperately need places for men, struggling with this issue, to get together and talk honestly, and clearly MN isn't that place. I think the women coming here to comment along the lines of, "How dare you expect your wife to show she values a sexual relationship with you?" could perhaps just refrain from commenting; it doesn't help.

I agree with this. For the guys that don't care for their families well yeah they can get in the sea.
I do however, appreciate all the responses, even the ones I don't necessarily agree with. Not looking for an echo chamber.
And yes we do need spaces for men to share and listen about things like this. Thanks

@GreenFlag
Could you end the marriage?
I've thought about it many times, I want to try every way I can not to first, and I always end up thinking about what's best for the kids

@pinkyredrose
No shit. You didn't expect her to do it when she didn't want to did you? She probably doesn't want to shag you because you keep going on about it. Nothing takes desire away like a sex pest.
I honestly don't talk about it all that much, as I know it leads to nowhere. I do try to start a conversation about it now and then but not in a "sex pest" way I assure you.
I've never expected her to do it when she doesn't want to, I was referring to initiating sex.

@Cardinalita90
The first thing that comes to mind about non-sexual touch being off the table is that you see this as a precursor to sex. Is that the case? If so, it explains why she doesn't want it. But again communication between you is key here.

Of course it could sometimes lead to sex, but it's not always the case, not at all. I'm referring to cuddling before or as we sleep, or just a hug when I get home from work etc.
She sleeps with her back to me, quite curled up and when she gets up in the morning she gets straight up and leaves the room (sometimes the house), with no kiss or contact. I just want to feel like I have a wife and not a room-mate

@Belladog1
As a woman I need to feel adored. A cuddle, a kiss, a hand hold, a snuggle on the sofa. As soon as all that goes .... it's over in my book.
Me too, well said

more:

@HaddlerScoop

Wtf are you on about? Why start your own thread on open or poly relationships, it's hardly relevant here.

I think you have your answer in the 25% of housework. You're not pulling your weight, she's exhausted and resents you, seeing to your sexual 'needs' is just another chore on her list. How much of the mental load do you shoulder? Have a look at the Fair Play cards for a better division of labour.

more:

@HaddlerScoop She is giving you maintenance sex, the absolute crumbs of it. It is up to you whether you feel you want to continue in a marriage with a woman who doesn't seem to want you, any part of you other than the money you bring in probably.
I think you worded the before and after marriage badly. It is a bait and switch scenario. To begin with lots of sex and then the second you are married that drastically drops, it is very different than it was before marriage.

I think this rings true, and yes I admit I should have worded the part before and after marriage much better

@Silverfoxlady
Another man who thinks that twiddling with his wife’s nipples will suddenly want her to have sex! That is not an ‘on’ button! Especially if she is sensitive there (during breastfeeding / pregnancy / time of month).
Have you asked her what she enjoys in bed? Everything is about you on this post, and you get upset if she is not into making you happy. What is making her happy to actually want her to have sex with you? She is not a robot. Good sex requires two people to feel good.
A lot of women need more than a nipple touch to feel sexy. It might require going back to basics and ‘dating’ her again. Taking time to get to know her. Establishing intimacy, and friendly touch (hand holding, hugging) that leads to feeling safe and lowering barriers. Ask her how her day is going, and be interested in her emotionally.

When did I say that was all I did? I was doing a whole lot more, not sure if you noticed but my post was already very long, I wasn't aware I should have written more. The nipple part was referenced as it was the part she (very strongly) objected to and ended things.
We do go on dates, that I initiate 9 times out of 10.
Friendly touch, are you serious? This is some of the things that I myself am saying is lacking from the relationship. I want this!

@Shadow1986
I think a lot of the replies are very harsh to the OP. He clearly loves his wife, I don’t think he should be made to feel like a sex pest for wanting a sexual relationship with her.
My husbands love language is also physical touch, and can imagine him writing a similar post to you. My perspective is that I don’t feel fully supported by him and hold resentment towards him a lot of the time. It makes enjoying sex difficult. He also doesn’t make a huge effort to make me feel attractive anymore and I think it would help if he did.

Thank you for this kind point of view, and yes I do love her.
What can I ask is the resentment you feel, if you don't mind sharing?
The attraction part is a big point actually. I find her very attractive, but I know she doesn't find herself as attractive these days

@sallyanne33
I think you have your answer in the 25% of housework. You're not pulling your weight, she's exhausted and resents you, seeing to your sexual 'needs' is just another chore on her list. How much of the mental load do you shoulder? Have a look at the Fair Play cards for a better division of labour.

Um, I also provide for the family, pay the mortgage, all the bills, work long hours, what should it be? 50/50?
Genuine question

I couldn’t live like this, I know if a woman started this thread everyone would be on her side but because he is a man everyone is mad

OP talking is better than thinking in this context perhaps 🙂

No, everyone is mad because of the use of the word 'witholding,' the assumption that sex is his due, and the disrespectful way he spoke about his wife.
He could have said- I love my wife, I fancy her like crazy, but she's not into sex or me or even any physical affection, plus refuses to talk about it. What should I do?
Then we wouldn't have been mad.

Does she work or is she a stay at home mum?

Back to you, OP, thanks for acknowledgement.
Doesn't matter what's -normal-, as long as it suits both sides.
Communication with my husband is and always has been a key. I communicated gradually what my -diversion- was. Yes, we both chose not to persuade penetrative or oral sex, celibacy if you want.
Affection is still there.

She probably dreads sex sessions that are going to last for ages!

I didn't mention that people shouldn't need sex, however, I mentioned that I might be perhaps assexual /not known for my young generation/ and that I witheld it from my husband at the beginning.

Maintenance sex is not enthusiastic consent, it's not consensual because she isn't doing it for her at all, it's to stop your asking.

You are not having consensual sex with your wife.

She doesn't like you essentially.

Has she lost herself, OP? How does she spend her time?

Can you take sex off the table. Go back to basics? Someone said sex starts in the morning. I kinda get this. DH will bring me a cuppa in bed. Does little things like kiss the top of my head, raise my chin for a short kiss. Brush me as we pass each other. Hug me. I lay in his arms every night until I get too hot. Doesn't always lead to sex.

Can you focus on building emotional intimacy rather than sexual? Find a way for her to be vulnerable, safely. Likely take very small steps, a lot of thinking and much patience.

@HusbandAndDad44 you are weaponising it by making her responses about you and that she is deliberately withdrawing it rather than thinking it is about something to with her and how she feels rather than it being a response to your want and desire to have sex (sex isn’t a need, you don’t NEED it, you can definitely want it and have it as a dealbreaker in your relationship that is entirely your choice) but it isn’t a need that needs fulfilling by her

that said the fact she can’t communicate it makes it hard to see how this can be resolved

Ignoring everything else, just wanted to pick up on how you prefer it to take longer. That is so off-putting for women a lot of the time. There's only so much time in the day and energy to go round. My ex used to take forever and sex would mean about 2 hours at least of messing around. It was so boring and tedious even if I was into it at the start. Even an hour is too long. I've told my new partner I like things done by at the most 45 minutes, including everything.

I just remember the touching and him coming on to me and dreading the two hour marathon of trying to get him to come. Often it didn't work because he had ED. Oh god I am so triggered lol!

The communication element is part of this. Why is she not wishing to communicate? Is it that sex, having it, not having it, feeling tricked/pressured/cajoled into all aspects of it over a time when she felt unheard - which may be a long time ago now- may have triggered this. Is she truly able to be honest without being presented with sighs, sad eyes, frustration, irritation, disappointment or "I pay for everything" in response. BTW you don't "pay" for everything, she is paying with her body, lack of options (to maybe leave due to financial limitations), child birth, child care, mental load, housework etc.

My exH was rubbish at sex but highly sexed. Early in our marriage I felt that I should want it, I was denying him it but the quality never improved. I felt like a sex worker - disconnected, used, trapped. My existence was to service him in all the ways he wanted. I dreaded sex but still continued engaging in it. I grew to absolutely hate him for that.

He never understood my preferences, and I never got a chance to either. It became currency. I was unable to speak about it on my terms and unwilling to talk about it on his. I paid him with sex, zero intimacy, grabbing at me, it was awful.

Expecting her to speak is just another demand. All of your responses speak of levels of demand, from her, from responders, from patriarchal values (why bring up your earning if you say it's not important).

I don't think you know the woman that is your wife. I don't think your wife knows who she is, which is very common for women who have children and husbands who expect them to meet their "needs" whilst not understanding hers.

It sounds like she doesn’t want to have sex with you.

Would you be happy to stay in the marriage without sex? If not, you should probably start thinking about separation.

it seemed to be only when she had the desire to ...

... only when she chooses...

Bloody hell. I've not RTFT, but I'm really shocked by you describing this as 'witholding sex' or 'keeping it from me in a controlling way', @HusbandAndDad44 . The words that I've quoted from your OP explicitly reveal that, to avoid being regarded by you as controlling and withholding, she has to have sex without desire and without choice. There is word for that kind of sex.

Also, you complain that when she has sex it is often 'with reluctance' on her part. That contradicts your claim that she has the temerity to insist on only having sex when she desires sex. It suggests that she does not want sex at all and is being pressured into it by you.

Of course that it sad for you, and if you wanted to end the relationship over it that would be a legit choice. But to live with this woman and sulk about the fact that she doesn't have essentially non-consensual sex as often or as enthusiastically as you would like?! Bloody hell. The absolute pre-condition for her actually wanting to have sex with you would be for you to start taking the pressure off and demonstrating that you actually care about what she wants

Sorry, I wouldn't normally post without reading the thread, I was just too shocked by what you wrote in your OP not to respond.

@YourAquaLion
I really feel for you OP, I am waiting to hear more from you after all the responses (some less helpful than others!). I know how you feel.
My partner is 10 years older and seems to have zero need for sex or intimacy beyond a kiss and a hug and sitting on the sofa watching TV. He also prefers to sleep in a different room as he doesn’t sleep well otherwise (and still not well sometimes on his own!). I know many women who feel the same and would love this set up! But I am currently really struggling with this as it just makes me feel really unloved.
Unlike your situation though, I don’t feel like it’s weaponised at all. He just genuinely has very different needs to me. And in most other areas of the marriage we get along well.
One thing that changed things (for a bit!) was when I said I couldn’t be in a relationship without intimacy, it was unhealthy for me and I would have to ask him for an open relationship or for a separation. I suppose this was a bit of an ultimatum, but I didn’t know how else to get through to him. He thinks I’m a total sex pest for wanting to be intimate once a week! It’s not a great feeling to beg someone for sex, it’s not nice at all to feel like you’re forcing them into it so you just stop suggesting it.
You could say how you truly feel to her, and ask her why things are the way they are - make sure there’s not anything that’s annoying her about the marriage which makes her not want intimacy with you, like does she feel you don’t pull your weight in certain areas.
Then if she just won’t talk to you, you could decide to say you’re giving it until Xmas or some other deadline to see change happen. And after that time you are through with the marriage, because this is not a marriage in your eyes and it’s not healthy for you.
Good luck OP. I wish my partner wanted intimacy and cuddles like you do!

I don't know how I missed your response first time. I think just because of navigating so many replies.
Thanks for understanding and it seems -sharing- a similar feeling of struggle and feeling unloved due to this. I also agree with the knock on impacts to health.

I read with interest your take on asking for an open relationship or separation without intimacy levels you're looking for. How did that go down may I ask? It seems like a big step, I've not thought about a kind of ultimatum and/or timescale like that, but it could be worth some thought.

Also... how dare you, you used the word "need" to describe you and partner's intimacy. Don't you know you should have said "want." You don't need intimacy like air or water...

haha jk
(I wish some on this thread would not read so much into the use of a single word. I'm not saying I'll die, just that physical touch and intimacy matters an awful lot to me personally)

Genuine thanks for your thoughtful response.

@NebulouslyContemporaneous please read the thread, my wording was poor and I've acknowledged that.

I honestly didn't think my wording would be scrutinised to such a degree. I can assure you and others everything is totally consensual and always has been.

Specifically, it seemed to be only when she had the desire to ...
... only when she chooses...
I was meaning when I would try to initiate I would always be unsuccessful (and obviously take things no further), and only when she initiated things is when we would do so

'I had a migraine after a long day at work several days ago and got into bed, where my wife already was, hoping for just a cuddle, but she was scrolling her phone and said it was her downtime, so I just got back up and had an aspirin instead.'

oh for goodness sake, you had a headache and yes that's what people do - take an aspirin.

cuddles do not relieve migraines - many people need to take to a dark room with medication to try and sleep off their migraines.