Help - Sex and Touch being withheld

[HusbandAndDad44]

Dad here. 44yo. My wife of 13 years weaponises sex, and more recently, touch. She always has to some degree I guess but it has gotten unbearable. She’s aware I have a need for touch and have a high sex drive compared to her. She basically keeps it from me in a controlling way. She knows I need contact like occasional cuddles too.

To start with (before marriage) we had more frequent sex and straight after marriage it seemed to be only when she had the desire to. My advances would be regularly and firmly blocked in no uncertain terms.

Since then things have gotten much worse, with certain acts being withheld indefinitely, and frequency diminishing more and more.
Now, we have vanilla sex only, very limited foreplay (again, her choice) and probably once a month or often less, for 20mins or less - only when she chooses, and when we do it seems to come with reluctance, and ‘conditions’ attached.
“Let’s be quick” or “we have a 10minute window” or “no not here” or “not like that”

She never talks about sex with me or has any reference to sexuality in our daily lives (literally never). She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”

Over the years basic intimacy like cuddling has been taken away. I like a cuddle at night and as I sleep, but this has eroded to even just the hope of a two minute cuddle before we sleep (only).

Just last night we almost had sex but when I started to gently play with her breast and nipple, she got visibly annoyed and shouted at me for doing it the wrong way. It was “too sore” although I wasn’t rough.
This lead to her storming out and preferring to sleep in another room rather than engage when I was trying to talk to her and express I feel she never has time for me.

Anyway, I was unusually angered at work today - just as much about the refusal to talk about it and the assumption she’s right (again), as about the no sex thing.
I decided not to go straight home after work for a change, opting to go for a meal by myself and then an evening showing at the cinema after and thought to myself I won’t talk to her during this time.
It’s now 10:30pm and I’ve had 6 texts and 20 missed calls.

What has my life become? I feel utterly unwanted and deeply unsatisfied and alone.
I still love her and find her very attractive but my awareness of all the other selfish sides of her and ignoring basically all my needs (I think deliberately) makes it like ongoing torture to want to continue on like this.
I’ve tried the communication thing repeatedly - both sit down and chat and also things like ‘couples quizzes’ and things like that. Each time I’m shut down quickly as if I’m the problem, it strangely that there’s no problem, or the issue is deflected and an argument about an unrelated topic begins.

Help and advice needed please! In particular from a woman’s perspective, thanks

why can't sex be a need? Although to be accurate the OP is talking about intimacy as much as sex. I would call sex a need for many people because it's very important to them. It is to me. It's just an unmet need right now and that has a very negative impact on me. And the OP clearly.
If she won't talk to you, she's unlikely to agree to counselling but it's worth a try. From my perspective - when I didn't want to be with my DP anymore - I behaved much as your wife has.

Being forced into being celibate whilst in a marriage is the main reason I divorced my exh @HusbandAndDad44
For whatever reason, your wife no longer enjoys having sex with you. Maybe a separation would suit you both. She would be relieved to not have a physical relationship and you would be free to look for a loving intimate partner. It does sound like her resentment is growing.

I would rather sit in a cinema than in a house where I was begrudingly tolerated.
Could you take up hobbies outside the home? Build up friendships and interests? I know how lonely it be when you are trying to keep a marriage going by yourself.
You can still be a wonderful involved dad and co parent.

Firstly, OP, sorry that I don't have much sympathy towards you.
Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you and would probably be happy if you stopped asking altogether.
Now from my perspective.
When I turned 42, /child free, no work/ I stopped having sex with my /significantly older, relevant/ darling of a husband. We have been married for 20 years virtually without problems, I kept secret that sex always felt more or less disgusting to me.
My marriage is very lucrative, I'm not exactly destitute myself, either /relevant/.
I offered my husband and amicable divorce or an open marriage, which he flat out refused, citing that we as a couple are far more important than sex, he's very healthy and would still be sexually active.
Now at 46, I'd rather very happily live alone, than have sex ever again. He's aware of that.
Sorry for the essay, but I strongly suspect that your wife feels very similar.
Amicable divorce/split, open marriage, if you cannot live without it.
Marriage is two people trying to sort out problems, which wouldn't exist if one remained single.

What attention are you paying to her that isnt related to sex?

For instance, are you just "nice" to her without any expectations? Or could she feel like you only do things for her with the intention of getting sex?

If my husband had been indifferent to me during the day and then started playing with my breasts expecting sex, Id be put off too.

I also dont like the build up. If my husband had been putting pressure/clearly expecting sex all day then that is really pressuring and off putting.

Maybe just go back to basics. When you started dating, it was aboit getting to know each other, not sex. Maybe go back to that and just being present for her without the expectation.

She'll be feeling under a lot of pressure, whether that's what you intend or not.

Sex happens "only when she had the desire to". As opposed to what, when you demand? She's your wife, not a sex slave.

"when we do it seems to come with reluctance" sounds like she feels coerced to have sex with you - which is rape.

"She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”" have you considered that not everyone needs sex to be anything but loving and pleasurable?

"It was “too sore” although I wasn’t rough." Maybe listen to her since it's her body and she knows how I feels?! She left the room because she doesn't trust you to listen.

And if she doesn't want to cuddle anymore I could understand - you sound like you believe you're entitled to sex, even if she isn't in the mood.

Your perspective and attitude is lacking respect and needs serious adjustment to save this marriage.

You're lucky to still have a wife imo.

She probably has the ick as you're so needy with all the "cuddles" you so need. Ick

I’m a woman in a sexless marriage. I miss it and it makes me sad sometimes but you can actually live without it, so it’s not a need. HTH.

Oxygen is a need, food is a need. We die without it.

Sex is not a need.

This is all about how your wife isn't meeting your needs. How well do you think you meet her needs? Your username has 'dad' in it so I'm going to say that you've got at least one child. How old are they? Do you do your fair share of the parenting or are you the type of dad who babysits his own kids? What about the house work? If you had to write a list of what her mental load looks like vs what yours looks like, could you do it? When my husband and I talked about mental load he was quite shocked at the amount of items that contribute towards mine.

Maybe this is one of those situations where you have to give to receive. Show her that you care in a way that makes her life better, without expectation of an immediate reward, and you may start to get somewhere. Oh and please believe her when she tells you that your touch is causing her pain. The only acceptable response in that situation is a sincere apology, not to ignore the feedback because you did not have bad intentions.

Yes.
If my husband started touching my nipples the way OP described, I would go off him completely.

You lost me at "vanilla", the cry of men forcing their porn inspired wants on women forever.

It's not a need in the same sense as food, water and shelter. For me, it's a need in the following way: my happiness within my marriage depends on it. I know from bitter experience that I can't be happily married to the woman I love without some sort of sexual contact, so that she sees me as a sexual being and not just somebody to talk to and cook her tea.

I think I understand the difference in responses according to whether it's a man or a woman posting. I've posted on MN on this issue myself. Why did I post here, when I knew MN is primarily for women? Because I haven't managed to find anywhere specifically for men, and I was desperate. There was a great forum I was on a few years ago, for exactly this issue and aimed squarely at men, and it was brilliant but, unfortunately, the man who ran it became ill and shut it down. Like MN, it was quite heavily moderated. It had rules: no whingeing, no promotion of affairs as a solution, no disrespectful talk about partners etc, and these rules were enforced. Interestingly, there were a few women on the forum (they weren't banned, just as men aren't on MN) and their perspective was interesting and welcome.

Most men are decent people. Most men work hard for their families. Most men do their share of parenting and housework. Some don't, and fuck 'em. We desperately need places for men, struggling with this issue, to get together and talk honestly, and clearly MN isn't that place. I think the women coming here to comment along the lines of, "How dare you expect your wife to show she values a sexual relationship with you?" could perhaps just refrain from commenting; it doesn't help.

A need is defined as something very important or essential. I will stick with my opinion thanks.

Could you end the marriage?

Society: Men, you should express your feelings more.

Men: Well, OK then, if you're sure. Here goes: I like receiving cuddles.

Society: Not those feelings. Ick.

FWIW I agree with you. I've talked to so many men since I split with my DP seven years ago, and the vast majority talked about this. How they felt when their wives just opted out of any intimacy, with no discussion. There is a big gap between the way most men and women view sex. And how much they "need" it. But also men often lack insight into things that drive women's desire for sex. All round not enough communication!

To start with (before marriage) we had more frequent sex and straight after marriage it seemed to be only when she had the desire to.

No shit. You didn't expect her to do it when she didn't want to did you? She probably doesn't want to shag you because you keep going on about it. Nothing takes desire away like a sex pest.

Agree with others on here, so many icks in your post. I don't know either of you but I can see why she doesn't want to have sex with you just by the entitled way you describe the relationship dynamics.

Why do you think she is withholding sex from you to what end? Weirdly, I've only ever heard men say this about a lack of sex in relationships.

As suggested above, insist on therapy or an open relationship. But most importantly, accept that she doesn't want to have sex with you right now and you are not entitled to her body.

@womanwithissues : I've said elsewhere that men and women view sex differently but that sexless relationships cause pain equally to the "trapped" partner, of either sex.

I don't actually know whether men and women view sex differently, mainly because I'm not sexually experienced enough, but in great part due to what I've read here on MN. The women who are crying out for sex from a man who won't give them it. A woman who expressed what's considered to be a particularly male perspective: "I need sex to feel right; he needs everything to feel right to want sex." I'm not saying men and women view sex in the same way, I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as perhaps I used to believe.

Obviously, men can't experience pregnancy and childbirth; something they can't have in common.

It seems to me when you get married you're asking the other person to forsake all others. Now no-one should ever be forced to have sex they don't want but they cutting off or heavily reducing sex or intimacy without communicating about it is simply not fair either.

The first thing that comes to mind about non-sexual touch being off the table is that you see this as a precursor to sex. Is that the case? If so, it explains why she doesn't want it. But again communication between you is key here.

She's not going to magically want all these things again, so I would echo marriage counselling. If she won't go or it doesn't help, you'll have to decide whether an open marriage or divorce are preferable.

Touch is a love language for me. I left my husband when all touch disappeared from our relationship and foreplay was a quick nipple twist and then jump on board assuming I was 'ready'. I wasn't.

As a woman I need to feel adored. A cuddle, a kiss, a hand hold, a snuggle on the sofa. As soon as all that goes .... it's over in my book.

My current partner is the same as me. He said he hadn't been touched by his ex wife for years and he would initiate a cuddle and she would push him away. It made him feel rejected and very depressed.

I feel for you OP and I don't know the answer. But you are both still young and it seems sad that you both don't seem to be getting what you need from the relationship.

She is giving you maintenance sex, the absolute crumbs of it. It is up to you whether you feel you want to continue in a marriage with a woman who doesn't seem to want you, any part of you other than the money you bring in probably.

I think you worded the before and after marriage badly. It is a bait and switch scenario. To begin with lots of sex and then the second you are married that drastically drops, it is very different than it was before marriage.

Honestly, I would look to divorce because this is only going to destroy your self worth. She doesn't seem happy either so I wonder why she stays, again I am going to say probably easier than splitting everything, possibly moving house and having to find a new place to live.

I thought it was spot on tbh, not harsh, just truthful.

Oh my Lord!

Another man who thinks that twiddling with his wife’s nipples will suddenly want her to have sex! That is not an ‘on’ button! Especially if she is sensitive there (during breastfeeding / pregnancy / time of month).

Have you asked her what she enjoys in bed? Everything is about you on this post, and you get upset if she is not into making you happy. What is making her happy to actually want her to have sex with you? She is not a robot. Good sex requires two people to feel good.

A lot of women need more than a nipple touch to feel sexy. It might require going back to basics and ‘dating’ her again. Taking time to get to know her. Establishing intimacy, and friendly touch (hand holding, hugging) that leads to feeling safe and lowering barriers. Ask her how her day is going, and be interested in her emotionally.

I think a lot of the replies are very harsh to the OP. He clearly loves his wife, I don’t think he should be made to feel like a sex pest for wanting a sexual relationship with her.
My husbands love language is also physical touch, and can imagine him writing a similar post to you. My perspective is that I don’t feel fully supported by him and hold resentment towards him a lot of the time. It makes enjoying sex difficult. He also doesn’t make a huge effort to make me feel attractive anymore and I think it would help if he did.