Help - Sex and Touch being withheld

[HusbandAndDad44]

Dad here. 44yo. My wife of 13 years weaponises sex, and more recently, touch. She always has to some degree I guess but it has gotten unbearable. She’s aware I have a need for touch and have a high sex drive compared to her. She basically keeps it from me in a controlling way. She knows I need contact like occasional cuddles too.

To start with (before marriage) we had more frequent sex and straight after marriage it seemed to be only when she had the desire to. My advances would be regularly and firmly blocked in no uncertain terms.

Since then things have gotten much worse, with certain acts being withheld indefinitely, and frequency diminishing more and more.
Now, we have vanilla sex only, very limited foreplay (again, her choice) and probably once a month or often less, for 20mins or less - only when she chooses, and when we do it seems to come with reluctance, and ‘conditions’ attached.
“Let’s be quick” or “we have a 10minute window” or “no not here” or “not like that”

She never talks about sex with me or has any reference to sexuality in our daily lives (literally never). She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”

Over the years basic intimacy like cuddling has been taken away. I like a cuddle at night and as I sleep, but this has eroded to even just the hope of a two minute cuddle before we sleep (only).

Just last night we almost had sex but when I started to gently play with her breast and nipple, she got visibly annoyed and shouted at me for doing it the wrong way. It was “too sore” although I wasn’t rough.
This lead to her storming out and preferring to sleep in another room rather than engage when I was trying to talk to her and express I feel she never has time for me.

Anyway, I was unusually angered at work today - just as much about the refusal to talk about it and the assumption she’s right (again), as about the no sex thing.
I decided not to go straight home after work for a change, opting to go for a meal by myself and then an evening showing at the cinema after and thought to myself I won’t talk to her during this time.
It’s now 10:30pm and I’ve had 6 texts and 20 missed calls.

What has my life become? I feel utterly unwanted and deeply unsatisfied and alone.
I still love her and find her very attractive but my awareness of all the other selfish sides of her and ignoring basically all my needs (I think deliberately) makes it like ongoing torture to want to continue on like this.
I’ve tried the communication thing repeatedly - both sit down and chat and also things like ‘couples quizzes’ and things like that. Each time I’m shut down quickly as if I’m the problem, it strangely that there’s no problem, or the issue is deflected and an argument about an unrelated topic begins.

Help and advice needed please! In particular from a woman’s perspective, thanks

Most people don't "go off sex' wholesale, they go off the sex that is on offer.

'I decided not to go straight home after work for a change, opting to go for a meal by myself and then an evening showing at the cinema after and thought to myself I won’t talk to her during this time.'

how childish and pathetic - to punish your wife in this way for not wanting sex with you last night

do you not realise she may think you have had an accident
or that you could be dead !!!

You said : The women who are crying out for sex from a man who won't give them it. this is a male perspective if ever I saw one

But now, you are saying that YOU yourself, are indeed a woman crying out for sex, from a man who won't give them it.

So how is it a male perspective, when you are a female who feels the same?

Maybe I have misunderstood what you are trying to say?

Anyway, Op has long gone.

I was very unhappily married and a post like this brings so much back to me. Lying in bed beside someone who wishes you weren't there is a sad thing. Men don't understand that just about everything is 'foreplay' (I hate that word - piv is not by any means always the main event). When a man has been snappy from the moment he walks in the door, criticises the clothes you're wearing and pushes aside the children who want to climb on him to say hello, and heaves a sigh when you put a meal on the table - then no, there will be no enthusiastic consent. It's another chore, that's all. Op, I hope you and your wife find some peace, together or apart.

Except this is a 'thread like that' at all - you've just made a whole story up there.

Again, it’s astounding what a difference in responses there are on here if a woman posts situations such as this. Some of these replies are awful.

OP, this must be very difficult for you, but I think you need to be prepared to leave the marriage because she’s made her position clear. It sounds like she’s got the “ick”, which sounds unkind, but I can only relate to my own experiences of a wonderful man who I just couldn’t get sexually excited about. I think if she’s not prepared to explore therapy or discuss this at all, I’m not sure you have a choice. Life is too short isn’t it? I hope you find a way forward.

It is in the context that his DW won't discuss it, explain, look for a solution etc - which are all cornerstones of respect, which is what a healthy, loving marriage should have.

It's not 'not having sex' - it's withholding it (she is) and refusing to acknowledge that, discuss it or make a decision (e.g. if she doesn't want sex with him - her right - she does have a responsibility to consider what that means for the marriage, and take ownership e.g. end the marriage / seek counselling or whatever course of action seems reasonable).

Expecting someone to just accept that you have withdrawn from all physical contact, with no forum for the OP to be heard, is horrible.

I agree with you. @MakeMineADietCoke disgraceful post

I am your wife basically. You are my husband...

yes I will only have sex when I want to. The fact you say she doesn’t have sex when she doesn’t want to. Do you WANT sex with her when she doesn’t want to have sex?! Gross.

secondly, I don’t cuddle him lots because any time I do he shoves his hands down my pants. I just want a hug, it’s not possible. He gropes me. Shoves his tongue in my mouth intensely. There’s no romance or finesse to it.

Oh gosh this. You have put it in words so well.

DH cuddles me all the time without groping or asking for sex.
I just have no libido.
I'm sure others are the same.

Is she withholding sex or just doesn't feel like it? If your wife is the same age as you she is probably going through peri menopause, which can dramatically alter yoursex drive. When I was going through peri, it was like some one had flicked a switch on my libido to off and some of the things you are saying really ring true, like be quick and getting annoyed if he touched my breasts. Hrt really helped me and a kind and patient husband.

“I still love her and find her very attractive but my awareness of all the other selfish sides of her and ignoring basically all my needs (I think deliberately) makes it like ongoing torture to want to continue on like this.”

Jeez the more you consider this man’s warped view - that his wife is ‘selfish’ and that she is ignoring ‘his needs’ and ‘torturing’ him…it would actually be laughable if it wasn’t so pathetic.

Op you need to turn the mirror on yourself. You are the selfish one. You are ignoring her needs. She is the one being tortured by having to be groped and fiddled with in bed when she doesn’t want and having a sulky sex pest constantly on at her. You don’t love her. If you did, you wouldn’t think of her in those terms.

"Witholding" means she's just as randy as you and really wants t shag you but is choosing not to go with that feeling, as a deliberate way to frustrate you.

That's not what's happening though. She doesn't want sex with you.

What do you think she might ask for if you said something like "I know you aren't interested in sex and that's ok, I don't want to do anything that you aren't enthusiastic about and if you are never enthusiastic about that again then that's ok. However I do want us to rediscover the joy that we used to take in each other's company. What do you feel is missing in our lives that is blocking you from experiencing that joy, and what can I do about it?"

Might she feel that she gives so much emotional labour throughout the day that she feels wrung out and doesn't have anything left to give? Maybe something like that will elicit an honest description of how overwhelmed she feels by everything else in life that she doesn't have space to be herself any more.

By the way, playing with her tits is clearly something that is for your benefit not hers. Get in the habit of asking "how may I please you?" and be perfectly prepared for the answer to almost alwaya be something entirely non-sexual like getting her a g&t or an extra cushion (or nothing at all if she's fine). If you can turn your behaviour around so she doesn't perceive you as selfish any more, then it's possible she might start trusting you enough that she can ask for "touch" things like a back- or foot-rub without feeling that she's got to stay tense to fend off un-asked-for sexual advances being added on too.

Sex and intimacy is an important part of marriage for the majority of people, obviously this won’t get better, she doesn’t want sex with you, so you should leave and find somebody who does. No point flogging a dead horse.

I agree that this is exactly a thread like that.

Not sure what you mean by ¨you've just made a whole story up there." What story are you referring to?

Assuming your wife is a similar age to you, she may well be perimenopausal - this can result in loss of sex drive in itself. Add to that hormones all over the place, feeling like you’re overheating (I can’t stand anyone trying to snuggle up super close when I’m in bed because it’s just too much to cope with so this could be why she doesn’t want to cuddle as you fall asleep - you could be making her physically uncomfortable!), starting to feel your body changing and not necessarily in a good way - all these things can lead you to feeling undesirable and not wanting sex. Oh and this could also cause her nipples to be sore in a way they never were before.

Do you have children? How much of the childcare do you honestly do if you have them, or does your wife do it all? How’s the division of labour - not just the housework, but the mental load too. If she’s feeling unappreciated and like she does everything because she’s the one having to remember everything, plan everything, make sure everyone’s where they need to be on time, order/buy anything needed in advance, book appointments, notice that school shoes need replacing then go and do that, etc it’s hardly surprising she doesn’t want to have sex with you - she resents you and the fact you have it easy.

Or maybe she just doesn’t want sex anymore, in which case you can choose to leave or ask her about an open marriage.

Maybe she needs a bit of romance? Do you ever take her out for dates? You took yourself off for a meal and the cinema without telling her where you were (a real shitty thing to do by the way - I’d say the same the other way round) - do the two of you ever go out for a meal and the cinema? Do you ever make the effort to make yourself look nice for her? If you do go out, who makes the plans? Who does the actual booking etc? So do you say “let’s go for a meal on Friday night” but then she has to choose where to go, ring around for availability. book the table, arrange childcare, sort out transport, etc?

In my experience, I lost interest in sex when I was fed up with being treated like I was the secretary who is expected to just do everything “because I’m so much better at it”, was exhausted all the time but expected that I should still want to have sex whenever my husband wanted it, without him ever doing anything to put me in the mood. And I’m not talking about physical foreplay.

If you don’t have children, you fully split all chores and mental load equally and she’s not in perimenopause you may have simply grown apart.

Sex is an important part of a relationship for most people. Wanting to have sex with your wife more than once a month does not make someone a monster.

Do you know what is baffling me even more as I continue to follow this thread?

The number of women who say that sex isn't a need and it's revolting that someone would still desire sex when the other party doesn't want it. That they should continue to find their partner just as attractive to them without having any basic intimacy.

Of course nobody should have sex without enthusiastic consent.

But when I was with my exH and he rejected me for years on end, the attraction dissipated and every other aspect of our relationship suffered because he refused to acknowledge that I so desired intimacy and physical touch.

And of course, sex and intimacy can be described as a need! In the same way trust and open communication can be! Emotional needs are a thing! And I've been reassured of this by my very effective therapist who I went to in order to address the feelings left by long term rejection.

Men are as entitled to need love and intimacy as what women are. Nobody has the right to ridicule someone for setting boundaries. To all of the people who have stopped allowing intimacy or conversations about intimacy, you should not expect your partner to continue to hold your own needs in highest priority and you should not expect them to continue to feel the same affection/attraction for you. It's human nature that they will shut off.

He’s not just ‘wanting’ it though is he? He’s accusing her of manipulation and ‘torture’ when it’s clear she doesn’t want him keep pestering her and touching her inappropriately. His ‘needs’ (or should we say ‘wants’), and his requirement that she satisfy them, are all consuming. I don’t see him being reflective of her needs in any way. No romance or care or any discussion of her domestic/professional load. Just a preoccupation of his own sexual requirements.

Thanks all for the replies, I'm not trying to push any narrative here only to understand the perspectives of others given how much this is affecting me

I'll try to reply to some of the main points/questions:

@MiloMinderbinder925
"This is disturbing. You seem to be suggesting that your wife should have sex if she doesn't want to. Your wife isn't a sperm receptacle, she's not on earth to service you.
I have no idea why you are continuing to have sex with someone who doesn't want to. Your wife has no desire to have sex with you and this is clear from the way she shows absolutely no sexual desire towards you."

No so I'm not suggesting that, perhaps I could have worded it better. I don't mean I have sex when she doesn't want to, I'd never ever consider it without consent. I'm meaning I'm always trying to initiate but never getting anywhere when I do, regardless of the way I try. I won't continue to initiate if the answer is no, and like the other night I stopped when I could see she clearly wasn't into it.
I was referring to her initiating, albeit rarely, as "when she wants to"

@Tiswa
"YOU have weaponised sex. It is as simple as that. You consider your needs and wants to be above hers without recognising what she wants
because in all areas of life the one who doesn’t want something wins.
work out why she doesn’t want it - look at how unbelievably unromantic you are being and how your behaviour would make most woman not want it and work out if you can save it"

I'm curious to know where from my description you've determined how unromantic I am. I didn't give my whole life story, but I believe although I'm flawed I do treat her well and have my romantic and thoughtful moments.

In what way do you think I have weaponised sex myself? thanks

@Wishihadanalgorithm
Sounds like it’s a deal breaker to me and that’s OK. Clearly there’s lots going on here but if the pair of you can’t communicate for whatever reason then I think it’s better to split up. You could of course try marriage counselling but I suspect your wife would be reluctant.
She has checked out so I’m not sure why one of you hasn’t started divorce proceedings already.

Thanks for your reasoned response, yeah I'd love it if we could talk about it, sex has always been utterly taboo for her to talk about with me, always. I just can't get a conversation about it at all over the entirety of the relationship. I think something may have happened in her past and I've asked for her to open up to me about it but she hasn't, regardless of how I've delicately asked.

From my side, I've not got to separation or divorce yet because of the impact it might have on our kids, and the hope we may fix things, daft as that may sound.

@QueenBakingBee
Try looking at Jimmy on Relationships on youtube - he talks about this a lot, especially with the bedroom. His videos on different types of intimacy and desire are helpful too.
And from my perspective, my ex H used to play and tweak my nipples A LOT to try and initiate sex. There had been no nice-ness from him throughout the day - no telling me I looked nice, no help with the kids, no help with housework, but then he expected me to want him sexually when I just wanted to go to sleep as I was shattered. This was my life, until enough was enough.

Thank you, I'll check that Jimmy on Youtube later today.

A few people mentioned this, I wasn't trying to initiate on this occasion, we had gone to bed and were already initiated so to speak. We were kissing and taking clothes off and getting into the mood. I didn't go straight for nipples (only) and tweak or manhandle them, more just part of the all round foreplay, for want of a better word. She suddenly became irritated and gave me a sharp telling off for the way I touched them, and it was the manner of how she spoke to me that made ME stop proceedings. A few moments passed and I tried to talk about it, at which point she stormed out and said she was sleeping in another room. I'm not sure why, I wish I did, but she then changed the subject and made the conversation about other things. I was confused then and I'm confused now.

@Agapornis
What do you do to make yourself attractive?
Going missing and worrying her for 5+ hours, and presumably leaving her to cover the childcare, will make you even less attractive.
As says - are you nice to her when you don't want sex? Do you look after your kids without prompting or help? What about housework? Do you only offer PIV sex that only gratifies you?

I don't do that much to make myself attractive, but I think most would say I'm fairly fit and well kept man.
The going missing thing is a once-off, not a regular occurance at all, I don't go out with friends at the weekend or leave the house unannounced, I'm a family man really.
I'm no saint but yeah I'm nice to her and I'm the provider for the family, not that the money side matters. I most certainly look after the kids frequently yes. I could do more housework, but I'm doing perhaps 25-30%.
Sex wise, I want to make sure we both enjoy it, if she hasn't climaxed then it's not been a success really. I could get more specific but trying not to make this about specific acts. I prefer longer sex than a quickie, put it that way.

@Eric1964
You should get yourself over to the Sexless Marriage Support Thread (started by a woman) and give that message to the many unhappy women on that thread.
Thank you, I'll check it out

@dairydebris
Sex isnt something you have a right to.
She's not 'withholding' it. She just doesn't want it. With you.
You have no right to expect someone who doesn't want to have sex with you to have sex with you just because you want it. Frankly, the way you speak about this disgusts me. You have no right to your wife's body.
If you dont wish to remain with someone who has no desire to have sex with you, begin the divorce.

Ok I didn't want to disgust anyone, I know I have no "right" to it, and I'm always always fully aware of consent, I'd hate myself if there and obviously stop immediately if ever there wasn't consent.
Never dreamed I'd have to be clear on that part but yeah the things we do are always all consensual.

@whatacroc
she's gone off you, its harsh but its a simple as that im afraid. I know because as a woman ive been there.
My desire soon returned after we split and a new man came on the scene.

It's not harsh, I appreciate your point of view. I wish we could talk about the details so I could understand why.

@Timeforabitofpeace
It’s pretty much accepted by marital counsellors that resentment over other issues like fairness of domestic labour and childcare has a significant bearing on emotional connection and therefore sex. And yes, the last two are linked.

This is something I'd like to know more about. I do feel like there's resentment there but I'm not sure what it's about. I don't think it's those things, but it might be something else. One for me to take away and think about. Thank you

@pontipinemum
it's the lack of communication that is the worst.
@Rosesandteashops
I 100% agree with this, I want to know why things are the way they are and what we can both do to fix it, or try anyway. If I don't know what's upsetting her, and she doesn't want to know what's upsetting me I really fear there's not much that can be done, especially after the time that has passed :(

various:
Yes, I have two children (both at school) and love them dearly. I don't want to hurt them. I didn't want to bring into a conversation like this if I didn't have to but seems it gives some context maybe?

Is it that his wife won’t discuss it/explain/look for a solution…or are those not the kinds of “discussion” he wants to have with her?

She never talks about sex with me or has any reference to sexuality in our daily lives (literally never). She has never expressed any fantasy to me, much to my frustration. “I don’t have any”
This isn’t a discussion about how to improve things, it’s him trying to get her to share fantasies (that she doesn’t have), and him being frustrated with her when she can’t.

I’ve tried the communication thing repeatedly - both sit down and chat and also things like ‘couples quizzes’ and things like that.
Easy to imagine the kind of conversation you’d have when using “couples quizzes” to facilitate. Less likely to be something geared towards opening up deep conversation/vulnerability/finding a solution, more likely to be just about sex.

Complaints about her being “vanilla” and only wanting to have sex when she wants to (does he want to have sex with her when she’s doesn’t!?), along with disappearing for hours after work without telling her where he was (likely leaving her caring for their child alone) doesn’t suggest he has a huge amount of respect for her. It also sounds like a lot of pressure on OPs wife to do what he wants, with very little consideration for her.

Sex wise, I want to make sure we both enjoy it, if she hasn't climaxed then it's not been a success really. I could get more specific but trying not to make this about specific acts. I prefer longer sex than a quickie, put it that way.

Maybe that's why she's gone off sex. When it lasts ages it can be quite off putting and make you sore not to mention it can get boring if it goes on too long. Why is it not a success if she doesn't orgasm? I had an ex that used to say 'I'm not stopping until you cum', dried me right up it did, i felt under pressure to orgasm just to puff up his ego.

Does your wife work outside the home and if so why you do so little around the house?

Also what do you mean by 'I'm no saint'?

Look for the other problems in your marriage and work on them. This is a symptom not a cause.

This checklist for gender equality in everyday life would be a good starting point to figure out the division of labour in housework and the children (from a Swedish regional authority). It is useful because it covers those time consuming things the less present parent usually doesn't think of (medical appointments, birthday gifts).
https://vardgivare.skane.se/siteassets/3.-kompetens-och-utveckling/projekt-och-utveckling/jamstallt-foraldraskap/material-foraldrar---fillistning/checklist-for-gender-equality-in-your-everyday-life.pdf

You can do better than 25-30%!