Ex not talking to kids until apology- it's been 6 weeks!

[IcyLemonJoker]

My ex and I split up in December, nearly 6 months ago, after 18 years married. I won't go into the ins and outs of all that but since December we have been mainly civil and the kids (DD 16, DS 14) had been visiting him each week - 1 day after school and every other weekend.
The last time they visited their dad, 6 weeks ago, my ex phoned me around 9pm to say I needed to come collect them as DS wasn't welcome in his home. They'd had an argument and he had kicked DS out. Literally made him wait outside. DD had left with her brother out of loyalty and I picked them up soon after.
The argument itself was over something silly but both kids' accounts of what happened don't paint their dad in a good light and it ended with some pushing and shoving, something that's never happened before.
So now we are at an impasse.... my Ex won't see DS until he apologises. DS and DD think their Dad should apologise and DS is not planning to do it. DD won't see her dad until they sort it out.
It's been 6 weeks.
DD misses her Dad but DS is less clear about it.
I have messaged my Ex to try and move things on. He sounds low and is missing the kids but won't budge on waiting for an apology.
Should I encourage DS to apologise when by all accounts his Dad should be taking the lead with this?
It seems like their Dad is willing to cut ties with them over this, which says a lot too.... I'm really torn with what is best for the kids and if I might regret not getting more involved in years to come.

He wasn't violent the kid was! She said he pushed and shoved his Dad! Would you be saying the same is he pushed and shoved his mum? Because chances are he'll shove his mum at some point!

He doesn't want to be a parent anymore.

Keep them away from him girl xx

I think you should read OP's posts again

This isn’t parenting by him it sounds like control. Possibly some depression mixed in.
As a ND person myself I don’t think the ND can be used as a reason here.
Maybe the depression.
If he can’t/wont parent appropriately maybe a break from the DC until he gets treatment/misses them too much or gives his head a wobble is the way forward

Can you orchestrate a mutual unspecified apology? They all meet, hug, say sorry and that they wish they hadn’t fallen out and they’ve been missing each other.

what would have happened if you were away and unable to get back to collect the kids? don't be piggy in the middle. It is dad responsibility to sort it out. Also whoever said the kids could apologise even if they don't need to in order to smooth things over is so wrong.

I would support and listen to your kids but not engage with Ex. You left him for a reason and managing his drama is no longer your job

How old is your ex? … old enough to have fathered a 16&14 year old I gather? And therefore old enough to know better.

however, if that’s not going to happen, perhaps you could speak to your children. Suggest that for the sake of putting on a front, your DS should apologise, but if he then doesn’t want much of a relationship with his dad he doesn’t have to have one.
appease the immature one, with your children understanding what they’re doing, but give them the upper hand to control the relationship.
they’re of the age where they’ll be busy anyway - so should easily be able to make excuses for not seeing dad if they don’t want to.

Fuck him. Sounds like your kids and you are better off without him.

Any decent father would be going out of his way to make sure the kids were as happy and comfortable as they an be during this horrible time.

The furthest I would go at this stage if I was you is ask your ex (again) if he really wants to lose his relationship with his children over this.

I absolutely agree with this. I'd like to add (and I'm not saying to try to 'get' at you, just pointing out a possibility) that you may have modelled behaviour to your daughter in being sympathetic to him for so long, which is why she is torn. So therapy might help her unpick that as well as help your son with his aggressive father. I hope it all works out well.

Gosh, men have it so easy don’t they. Butt hurt by a few home truths harsh words from his DS and he’s cut all contact. It’s really not that hard for him, if it was, he’d reconcile with his son.
Sounds to me like he’s found a convenient opportunity to back out of his parenting responsibilities and play the victim.

Your DD sounds like a great sibling. Good for her backing her brother. They’re old enough to make their own choices.

Fuck him. His loss.

@IcyLemonJoker Hi OP. I agree with @AtomicBlondeRose in the sense that I would talk to my son and tell him that regardless of what he chooses it’s not wrong. But ultimately the bigger issue is what a parent has an argument with their kids and then they are no longer aloud in their home? That is absolutely bonkers. As a parent you’re supposed to love your kids unconditionally and guide them - not just throw them out when you disagree. And honestly i wouldn’t encourage any further relationship with their father. They are old enough to make their own decisions. I would support and facilitate if they wanted to have one but wouldn’t force one.

The kids are also going through divorce.
It’s good that they’re getting counselling.

In your shoes I’d be over the moon the ex you describe was choosing not to see the kids.

he is still paying CMS?

He has some big flaws, as a partner and a dad... also chronic pain, depression, neurodiversity...

although I’m going to guess this prince isn’t earning a bean aside from what the tax payer gives him

Obviously it depends what DS did and the actual situation.

If he stole or something, then he needs to apologise for that action.

If DH started it by accidentally breaking something of DS, then DH needs to apologise for that action.

DS getting physical is not ok and I would probably tell my son to get out of my house if he shoved me too.

We cannot advise without knowing the full story but they both need to apologise to each other and the person who started it should apologise first.

However, the only thing I would be doing is encouraging your DD to carry on seeing him if she wants to.
Tell DS you will support him whether he wants to see him or not but then stay out of it.

It's not your job to parent both your kids and arsey ex. I'd let ex stew in his own juice but tell your kids you're there for them.

i would agree with this provided that the children actually do want contact. Also the payment thing....I understand the argument for the father paying more if he isn't having the kids but does that still apply if he is willing but the children won't go and in particular if the children won't go because of the father's behaviour? Also is it a good idea to extort an apology? I mean are the kids going to be safe with him?

There are two types of people in the world. People who believe an apology is a heartfelt expression of empathy and feeling for a wronged party, who believe it heals and helps people to move forward. Those people typically raise children who apologise freely and do it even when they don’t really believe they are in the wrong.

And then there are those who treat interactions with their children as competitions, where someone has to lose. Normally the child. An apology is conceding, losing, capitulating. They punish until they receive one. They often don’t accept it in good grace. They insist on it, instead of working on relationship so it’s freely and easily given. These people raise children who hate apologising, resent guilty feelings and avoid.

Your idiot ex is the second.

What I would do is this. Tell the children that there is no need to either apologise or see the ex. Boundaries are wonderful! But have a really deep conversation about you wanting them to understand that their dad doesn’t feel the same way as you about apologies. That they are a good thing and that you hope they know that. That going forward in their healthy relationships they can give and receive them without losing. That his way of demanding them and punishing if he doesn’t get one is wrong and unhealthy. Like gratitude and other healthy expressions of emotion, apologies should have no value judgement.

All the best with it.

My experience 4 years on from a similar XH style of parenting, with then similar age children, with a similar gap between long marriage ending and similar incident with DD happening and similar response of XH is that he's shown himself to be the person he is to his children.

I didn't get involved with their incident. I didn't contact XH about it. I told the children it was their call how to handle it with their dad, as they were having to develop relationships with him now outside of me. As teenagers, they seemed pleased I wasn't going to fall out with them over this or force them to do something they didn't feel was right.

I later found out a neighbour called the police when XH had the altercation with DD. Awful man who could never cope with not being obeyed and without me in there diffusing the situation, he showed his children his true colours.

Adult DD now sees her dad once every few months and texts every now and then. She mostly gets in touch with him when she wants something, as she doesn't like him very much as a person.

Adult DS alternates staying at mine and XHs every week.

Allow your teens to find their own way with this. They have to make decisions about their dad themselves. I know it's hard to not interfere, but try not to get involved. You can't win, so don't try. And he sounds like someone you shouldn't be pushing them onto anyway.

All the best

OP, it seems that your DS tried to shove and hit his father soon after your split. Since you were not there for the argument, it is hearsay from your teenage DS.

Is there a third party that you can approach to help you with this situation? A mature family friend who can talk you your ex-H and let him know that while he may have an issue with his child physically assaulting him, he is still the parent and the adult.

The trivial issue that triggered this latest spat is likely not the underlying cause of all the anger leading to physical blows. Six weeks is more than enough time to cool down and reflect on what led up to the physical fight and the fight may have been percolating for a long time since as you've said, you and the kids walked on eggshells prior to your ex moving out.

As for DS, you need to give him support, but firmly state that it is not right to lay his hands on anyone. If he is upset with his father, he can always walk away to another room.

In addition, and this is pure supposition, you need to also be firm that DS does NOT need to fight your battles. DS should know that it is not his job to be an avenging angel for situations he may have witnessed growing up in a tense situation, as you have described. DS may need some professional help to work through his anger issues, so he does not get into physical altercations where he could be hurt, stabbed or worse.

It is a tricky situation. Good luck OP and hope your family heals and you can get to a better co-parenting situation.

"Should I encourage DS to apologise when by all accounts his Dad should be taking the lead with this?"

Absolutely not. That's a terrible lesson to teach a child.

Your ex's relationship with the kids is not your responsibility. It's up to him to fix it.

It seems like their Dad is willing to cut ties with them over this

If he wants a relationship with his kids, he needs to work on it.
He's the adult.
If they apologise to him now, this tactic has worked and he will just use it again and again to get their obedience/compliance.

it seems like their Dad is willing to cut ties with them over this

I would be silently rejoicing