Your advice needed - split up or not

[CatWithAGreenHat]

Hi fellow mumsnetters, i could do with a bit of your insight and advice.

I’ve been with this man for about 10months now amd situation arose (again) which makes me question whether this is right for me. I will write down some facts that i think are relevant as objectively as i can and without passing my own judgement.

We are both divorced, i’m on friendly terms with my ex and we coparent and rub along allright. All i would expect from amicable divorce. My partner, he had a difficult divorce, she is a narcissist and gaslighted him etc etc. 3 kids, he sees 2 but not the eldest (complex situation i won’t go into at this point).

He is calm, analytical and we fit well in many ways. Similar world views, interests, financial attitudes and expectations from a relationship. We both are both after long term stable relationship and it’s going well, most of the time.

Thing is, over time i have noticed he can be very inflexible when it comes to me raising concerns about quite often something quite minor in his behavious that upsets me. He says he has no issue apologising if he’s done something wrong but to me it feels like that rarely happens. A lot of the times minor things escalate into bigger issues, i feel this is because instead of just saying ‘sorry, i see i upset you’, he starts analysing situation and proving thay there is no reason for me to be upset. So simple things that would be resolved with quick ‘sorry’ escalate into prolonged texts or emails where i feel like i have to prove why i got upset about particular issue.

We don’t argue as such. There is no shouting. We talk in texts or emails. That is a positive because in my marriage i was used to blazing shouty rows so this feels so much more level headed and calm. Still, im starting to feel that his reluctance to apologise is starting to really grate on me. He says because of his marriage, he will not apologise if he doesn’t feel he’s done something wrong. I can understand that. But i can’t help but start feeling resentful and unheard.

We are currently in one of the ‘arguments’ and we still send texts to each other signing out with xx and say ‘love you’ at the end of the day.

I am meant to see him on friday and have been thinking about this a lot. I feel like i cannot get upset ever because that will get invalidated when all i want is a quick sorry and us moving on from the situation. He seems to be incapable of doing that.

I am starting to wonder if this is right for me, in fact im starting to wonder if it is always me raising things needlessly. He thinks it is. But then part of me feels like this is not normal and it’s eroding something in me even though we have a lot of good things going.

Any advice? Thanks if you got to the end of this.

does /dfid he twist the narrative- ie are you being “unkind” by sharing your upsets? Are you left feeling both guilty, confused and resentful all at once? Something feels off but you still doubt yourself? It may be true that his ex was challenging but narcissists project blame onto others, re- write the narrative. By the point they share this version it’s become the truth in their eyes - they need preserve the fact they’re faultless so will not take accountability for mistakes or harm they cause others- deliberately or accidentally. They blame the other person and they are the only person who can judge behaviour- their own and others. Somehow they can often achieve this by appearing reasonable. In my ongoing situation I’ve seen what he is, detached as far as is possible to protect myself but even with that , any examples of “normal” behaviour make me doubt my own conclusions . It’s the classic “breadcrumbing”- if he’s able to appear nice then it’s confusing and you doubt yourself. The aim is control by creating chaos and making you unsure of yourself. I know all of this but still experience the doubt and confusion. And I’m having to look at a long term approach to exiting possibly over years which makes me so sad that I’ve wasted so many years already being told by him that my ideals of relationships have come ftom movies not real life invalidating the idea of emotional safety and healthy relationship etc. You’ve done the best thing getting out - don’t get reeled back. Not worth the risk even if he’s “just” emotionally immature. I had doubts and worries but somehow over ruled then and also thought he’d change, understand if I could explain better etc. keep yourself safe,

Yup, i heard a number of times from him - i am a nice person.

You can dump him at any time for any reason. For me, not seeing one of his children and having a “narcissist, gaslighting” ex wife would be a gigantic red flag”.

I was definitely left feeling confused and resentful. Didn’t feel guilty in the beginning as I think it’s good to be direct and not hide things, especially as you are getting to know another person. I did start feeling slightly guilty over time though, especially as he was so sure it was always me causing issues.

But i also felt increasing anger because he kept saying ‘i want us to raise things and issues’ but when i did i was dismissed and portrayed as unreasonable every single time. In fact, after last issue which broke us up he said he feels i like to create tension, hurt and chaos. All my fault then, right.

But i did start doubting myself.

You are right, it’s not worth it even if he is ‘just’ emotionally immature. The effect is the same. I also have 2 kids (10 and 15), what if we were together long term and he did this to them? What sort of relationship would they have? And how that would affect my own relationship with my kids. It’s not worth the risk.

I’m sorry you are in the same situation, long term, i wish you the best finding your way out. It can’t be easy.
Btw, i don’t think i have relationship aspirations based on fairy tales and neither do you. It’s yet another way of him telling you you are wrong, unreasonable and irrational.

I did that already..
Those red flags combined with calm intelligent and seemingly kind and rational demeanour can be confusing. That’s why i fell for it.

@AlorsTimeForWine
She probably had a lawyer because her brain is fucking addled from dealing with him

This. I thought this too.

Oh my word - this could have been me writing all of this - it was me for so many years.
He never escalated to physical violence with me either but I don't think he was far off. And of course his previous ex wives had been on the receiving end of physical violence. He began to realise that he was losing control with me, that I was beginning to see him clearly and that was enraging him. Coupled with the escalating drinking I really think I had a lucky escape.
I have often thought that it would have been easier for my mind to accept it all as fact if he had just thumped me one. Something physical and real that my mind could never question or doubt.

It wont feel it now, it will take a lot of healing and processing of it all and I really believe that some things will never be processed fully anyway - but if you stayed with him then you would have been me a few years from now.
Just keep going - accept the bad days and the overthinking, the days when you want to cry and shout and if you want to contact him during these bad moments, make yourself wait a day. It does pass.

I am comparing it to when I tried to give up smoking - the craving is physical and it passes very quickly if we wait. The habit is what we have to break and over time we do break it. If we reach for that cigarette during that five minutes of pure physical craving pain just to make our pain stop, we undo all of our previous good work of going cold turkey and we go back to square one. Then we have to go through it all again from scratch at a later date.
And you know you will be going through it all again if you go back now.

And, chances are you will be the one punished for putting him through all this stress now. He's not going to suddenly change his behaviours because you have 'forgiven' him and taken him back. I guarantee that if you did go back, within a day or two you will be the one wondering why he appears cold towards you or he's not reciprocating in the 'making up' phase - my ex used to pull away from me and then say "I can't just snap back into being loving towards you after you have hurt me so much" - my mind was screaming at me WTF!!!????

When I ended our relationship last year, and the previous year because of the same behaviours that have finally ended it now, I gave in to my cravings and I so wanted to believe that I was the one that was over sensitive, too emotional, remembering things wrongly, causing all his stress and ruining our relationship - if only I had believed in myself and my truths then I would have been out of this mind fog now, I would no longer be crying over him or doubting myself - the worst would have been over.

The only way out is through - one foot in front of the other - one day at a time.

Oh blimey. This thread is quite a hard read for me.

In this situation I am the partner. I’m pretty easy going and don’t take offence at many things, however I also expect the same to be levelled at me from a partner. I actually do have zero issue apologising when I have been wrong, and really do try to make things up to the other person (and spend a lot of time beating myself up inside when I do something wrong), however I would be very unlikely to apologise to another person for their ‘perception’ that I’d done something wrong if I truly felt I hadn’t. I would assume that would be their way of ‘changing’ me and then I would be on my guard forevermore that I would accidentally cause the same slight again and would start subconsciously modifying my behaviour to align with what the other person wanted me to be.

I do have issues communicating, so there is that, and am currently going through a breakup (at my request because of similar reasons). I also do have emotional boundaries and a need to ‘protect’ myself and my children. I’m probably horrible to go out with to be fair but I am kind, and loving. I just wanted to possibly put the ‘other side’ across as I resonate with the OP’s partner here.

I am now questioning whether or not I’m a bloody narcissist or whether certain people are too sensitive to go out with less sensitive people.

Caveat that I haven’t focused on the issues with the OP’s concerns regarding the ex wife and children, that’s hard to unpick unless you have both sides of the story.

# MysticHalfWitch I am now questioning whether or not I’m a bloody narcissist
Well, from my 'well read on narc' perspective I think if you have the ability to self reflect and question your own behaviours, you are not a narc.
And it's not about changing yourself to suit your partner, its about looking at ways that we can perhaps all improve ourselves but without losing our own values and beliefs in the process.
A narc will very very rarely give a heartfelt apology as they are never wrong.

Thanks for that @Sunflowers67, I appreciate it.

I am not looking to label my ex as a narc just because he has difficulty apologising or lacks emotional intelligence. Those things can be separate traits or a part of something else entirely (not narc related).

I am trying to make sense of a number of things i heard and observed, the narc ex wife, no contact with eldest, certain attitudes he has expressed about things over time, some issues he has mentioned from the past in his workplace and also very importantly my own small observations (certain coldness, lack of emotion in eyes, fleeting microexpressions here and there).

Alone, i would assume he is just a bit clueless and meaning well. However it’s the whole picture that is making my gut feel uneasy about him.

I see your side too, if you start bending over apologising for everything you are making yourself vulnerable to control. It’s give and take, isn’t it. There should be mutual care about each other’s feelings without looking to opress and subdue.

It’s because it’s been so difficult to get any kind of sorry from him that I’m wary it might not quite be the loving relationship i once (in the beginning) thought it was.

@CatWithAGreenHati completely understand and I think you can never do wrong if you really trust your gut. I’m glad you understand I wasn’t trying to criticise you, just I suppose put the apologising thing from another viewpoint. If it’s all adding up to be be wrong in your gut, it’s wrong for you (regardless of the reasons). Wishing you all the best moving forward.

It took me 25 years.

Ahhh @livelovelough2420 years for me 😢

Just a little update. I have blocked him today, including on social media.

I keep alternating between feeling a little bit sad and telling myself i did the right thing. I’m
sure he has by now noticed so stupidly, i feel sad thinking that he might be upset. He dod say at some point he would be devastated if this happened.

I might meet a friend tonight for a few drinks and a chat.

@CatWithAGreenHat just be kind to yourself and allow yourself time to heal. It’s natural to be upset for the other person (I am the same at the minute). Keep busy and don’t look back x

I imagine his ex's family were desperate that she had good representation, knowing he'd have no trouble persuading the court and she'd be too scared to speak.

Yep - same here ladies!
Alternating between sad one minute, positive that I've done the right thing the next then back to worrying about his feelings and how he is coping 😳what a bloody roller coaster it is!
Because we are good people I am sure this is normal.
I saw my counsellor yesterday and we talked about this a lot - I think this is the main issue for me - worrying about him and how much I have hurt him by ending it all and then the restraining (DAPO) order against him and tarnishing his name with police statements.
She pointed out that I am imagining that he is going through the same as I am. I am thinking that he is feeling the same as me and if I had a little CCTV camera on him right now, what do I see him doing?

Well, during my sad & bad moments, I imagine him crying himself to sleep, not being able to function on a daily basis, getting thinner and drawn looking, pale from not going out much, full of remorse and regret for how he treated me and desperately trying to apologise and fight for our relationship.
I imagine him locked up in a mental institution because he had a breakdown. I imagine him in hospital because it was a nasty old brain tumour that caused all those bad behaviours.
This is what my brain wants to believe because the alternative is hard to cope with - it means he is carrying on as normal and that makes him exactly what I think he is - and that is soooooo hard to cope with.

Of course he is eating, sleeping, going about his daily business - he probably even has a tan and has been down the gym. He is just fine except for maybe some lurking rage and indignities that I dared to end the relationship and then tell all these lies about him to the police. He is still down the pub, drinking himself silly and ranting about how awful some women are, how mental and hormonal we all are.

What did your ex used to do? What were his hobbies, what did he do in his spare time, who did he have as friends, where did he go, what was his home like, his clothes, his hair - start imagining those pictures in your head.

That is what he is doing.

Agree. I would break the relationship. Not worth the hassle.

#CatWithAGreenHat - 👋how are you doing?

@Sunflowers67 i was hesitant to reply but i will anyways.
We met and had an open chat about a lot of things that bother me. Including his inability to say sorry. He explained his reasons for it.

He comes across as a little bit rigid and may i say autistic to me which i have experience of (family history, dad probably undiagnosed aspergers). He was open and was really worried how we seem to argue about smallest of things but also listened to what i had to say and appeared to genuinely want to give me what i need in a relationship. Things have been better since, he’s been more affectionate and wanting to understand the way i perceive things.

So we are back together. My eyes are open so i will see how this goes. Maybe i am
making a mistake, that is always a possibility. My take away is, to feed back honestly what i see and take it from there.

How are things with you?

#CatWithAGreenHat

Well, I am pleased for you - pleased that you are doing what feels right for you - that's all any of us can do. It sounds like you have your eyes and ears open but are willing to give him/your relationship another chance.
I really hope that things can be salvaged and maybe he needed the wake-up call.

I hope we don't see you on here again - said in the kindest way possible as it means everything is great for you both 😁

I just thought i’d update this thread.
So we got back together and i have called it off 3 times between June and now. The 3rd time which was less than a week ago is final
one.

I tried but couldn’t convince myself that everything is ok and the gut feeling that this is not right never left me. In fact, some 2 weeks ago (not long after we made up after our 2nd split in Oct) he was staying at mine’s and in the middle of the night i woke up feeling weight of anxiety… i was anxious because the gut feeling was loud and it was telling me this is not good for me. I was curled up in bed with him sleeping next to me thinking i was so stupid to get back together (after he reached out), that i made a mistake and how will i get away from him now. I calmed down and fell asleep eventually.

Looking back, i am now almost certain that he fits the covert narc profile. Quite difficult to spot because he sounds so reasonable and claims to love me. I have noticed these things though:

• Fake apologies. I had ‘i’m sorry you feel this way’ amd similar
• pretends not to understand the issue if i raise something with him, this happened a few times. It made me doubt myself and want to carry on explaining. Appears to be a technique he used to distract from the issue and have me explaining and tying myself in knots
• i have re-read some of our texts and DARVO seems to be there. I raise the issue, he denies there is a valid reason for me to feel xyz, brings ‘evidence’ of why i shouldn’t feel xyz. Then states he is feeling sad/upset/concerned/whatever as a result. Makes me feel unreasonable to question and raise things, and guilty because i am apparently one bringing instability into our relationship. Whereas he hasn’d done anything wrong.
• has victim tendencies, in many areas of his life. Feels victimized by his ex wife, not happy about not getting due importance at work, same feelings around relationships with quite a few people in his life.
• will never ever say sorry
• guilt tripping. After our final break up announced i chose to break up near 2 important dates to him. As if i should be checking a calendar to see if it’s convenient for him even if things don’t feel right and i want out.

I tried but couldn’t feel close emotional connection with him despite on paper things us looking like a good couple. Lack of emotion in his eyes, certain coldness and unsubsiding gut feel that i am
somehow not safe.

I read up quite a bit about covert narcissism
too and i am certain that this will be the last time we broke up. If i waver, i remember the night i woke up with anxiety, i don’t want to be in that position again. We got back together because i had hope i was wrong and things will be different this time. But they were the same. I just re-discovered that he wasn’t the warm person i wanted him to be and that my gut feel about him was still the same.

I wonder how are you doing @Sunflowers67 , hopefully you have long forgotten about him as it’s been quite some time and didn’t get sucked in back again.

Merry Xmas to all btw🙂

Hi Cat
I could have written all of that - the body knows before the mind.
My poor body had been screaming at me for a couple of years!

Well, he is not long forgotten sadly - I think I am about 9 or 10 months out now and although the tears have stopped and for the most part, I just go about my day, I do still grapple with the 'why's' of it all. My mind just cannot compute some of the lovely things he said and did with the bad stuff. I think I am almost at the acceptance stage and that I will never get any closure, never get any answers and it just is what it is.
But there are days when I really do miss the nice man that he showed me.

I also read everything and came to my armchair diagnosis of covert narc - it was the only thing that seemed to fit him perfectly.

I still see my amazing therapist every three weeks now, I still go to my adult education classes, part time job, making new friends and just being me and learning what 'me' is.

Christmas day was a little difficult - being the first one in a lot of years where he wasn't sat around the table. But then I remind myself that it's also the first Christmas where I haven't had to hear 'I don't know what to get you' and being made to feel like an inconvenient afterthought. I haven't been made to feel like something is wrong with me as he rolled his eyes and harrumphed at me for refusing sex. It's also the first year that he I haven't had him pissed and offensive.

I think the trick is, once you get one of those sad thoughts about missing them you immediately say to yourself 'yes but......' and then think of all the hurtful things they said or did or how bad they made you feel about yourself. The nights you lay awake questioning your own sanity, those feelings of contempt that they seemed to project towards you, the gaslighting, the way your body and soul felt.

So, yes I'm doing okay in a sort of 'cracked but not completely broken' kind of way.

Thank you for asking and I know that you too have done the right thing.

Lets hope 2026 is a calm, peaceful and healing time xx

Me ex sounds a bit like yours.I know in my relationship with my ex I ended up just wanting to be allowed to have my own opinion even if it was different to his. It didn’t matter to me who was right or wrong - just that he could understand something done or not done may have been upsetting/confusing or disappointing to me, even if it wouldn’t have been to him.

He seemed to want everything to be a competition, so someone had to be proved to be ‘at fault’ and his ego wouldn’t allow him to be wrong.

In the end, I ended up convinced there was something fundamentally flawed with me. After a divorce, and therapy I was told he had narcissistic traits and I’d been subjected to DARVO.

If you feel that that this current situation could develop into you never raising issues - then it’s definitely time to walk away.

with your hand on your heart, do you honestly think he sees you as his equal?