Your advice needed - split up or not

[CatWithAGreenHat]

Hi fellow mumsnetters, i could do with a bit of your insight and advice.

I’ve been with this man for about 10months now amd situation arose (again) which makes me question whether this is right for me. I will write down some facts that i think are relevant as objectively as i can and without passing my own judgement.

We are both divorced, i’m on friendly terms with my ex and we coparent and rub along allright. All i would expect from amicable divorce. My partner, he had a difficult divorce, she is a narcissist and gaslighted him etc etc. 3 kids, he sees 2 but not the eldest (complex situation i won’t go into at this point).

He is calm, analytical and we fit well in many ways. Similar world views, interests, financial attitudes and expectations from a relationship. We both are both after long term stable relationship and it’s going well, most of the time.

Thing is, over time i have noticed he can be very inflexible when it comes to me raising concerns about quite often something quite minor in his behavious that upsets me. He says he has no issue apologising if he’s done something wrong but to me it feels like that rarely happens. A lot of the times minor things escalate into bigger issues, i feel this is because instead of just saying ‘sorry, i see i upset you’, he starts analysing situation and proving thay there is no reason for me to be upset. So simple things that would be resolved with quick ‘sorry’ escalate into prolonged texts or emails where i feel like i have to prove why i got upset about particular issue.

We don’t argue as such. There is no shouting. We talk in texts or emails. That is a positive because in my marriage i was used to blazing shouty rows so this feels so much more level headed and calm. Still, im starting to feel that his reluctance to apologise is starting to really grate on me. He says because of his marriage, he will not apologise if he doesn’t feel he’s done something wrong. I can understand that. But i can’t help but start feeling resentful and unheard.

We are currently in one of the ‘arguments’ and we still send texts to each other signing out with xx and say ‘love you’ at the end of the day.

I am meant to see him on friday and have been thinking about this a lot. I feel like i cannot get upset ever because that will get invalidated when all i want is a quick sorry and us moving on from the situation. He seems to be incapable of doing that.

I am starting to wonder if this is right for me, in fact im starting to wonder if it is always me raising things needlessly. He thinks it is. But then part of me feels like this is not normal and it’s eroding something in me even though we have a lot of good things going.

Any advice? Thanks if you got to the end of this.

So last night i nearly picked up the phone and texted him. On the night we split he wanted to stay friends but i declined. Last night i started doubting myself and felt lonely (kids at dad’s), im pleased i didn’t text him in the end.

I know i haven’t given many examples of other incidents where i got upset. I couldn’t remember them of the top of my head. But i am rereading out texts and i’ve come across some.

Early on, like 2-3 weeks into knowing him he has corrected a minor grammatical error in my text to him. I was taken aback and pulled him up on it and questioned why texts need to be scritinised to that level. He responded he meant well, wanted to help me, educate, that he gets corrected all the time when travelling etc. It felt patronising and i was very open about it. Looking back, that was first instance of the tedious dance which turned out to be a pattern later on. Explaining, rationalising, proving im wrong to feel the way i feel. Where someone else might have just gone ‘opps, i obviously got that one wrong, sorry, my bad’.

Some weeks after that we had another ‘issue’ where we were talking about what name we gave each other on our phones. I stated he was X (his real name) to which he replied he’s got me as a name which is mildly disrespectful way of calling a woman. Again, i have pulled him up on that and once again, was presented with numerous texts explaining how i am unreasonable to have such a reaction, how he didn’t quite mean it and eventually apologised for it.

There were a number of other comparatively small issues where i can now see a pattern- he would never ever just say ‘oh shit, sorry, i see it upset you, i didn’t mean it’. He would go on and on explaining why my reaction is unreasonable and why he hasn’t done anything wrong. On occassion, he asked me to write him an email and explain ‘what i think went wrong there’ and was fond of lenghty emails himself by the end of reading some i had no idea what the issue was tbh and how we got to this in the first place. And i felt totally in the wrong.

Oh, he sounds really tiresome. Good job on not texting him. It'll get easier with time.

I get that - I have had a few of those 'nearly' moments in the last few weeks.
Its usually when I am on my own, a little bored, feeling a bit lonely, start to think about the good times together (and there were so many). I always promise myself that I will not contact him now but I will wait until the morning.
It passes.
It really is a case of taking one day at a time - I am sure that it wont always feel like this and one day it will be like seeing that long, gong forgotten ex in the street - the one where you think to yourself "what was I thinking when I hooked up with HIM!".
At the moment it is so raw and it hurts - our natural response is to reach out to the person that we thought was our best friend and soulmate.

Its just a case of your neurons making new, healthier pathways for your mind to react to (apparently, according to my counsellor - whatever they are I wish they would hurry up and do what they have to do).

Keep going! 😘

And those texts that sounded a little patronising, minimising, insulting?
They were.
I had them too.

Honestly OP he sounds like a pompous self righteous bore with a pole up his backside.

He's not the man for you - walk away with your head held high and don’t get reeked back in

Its far better being single than to be spoken down to by a patronising tosser

thank you, that made me laugh, much appreciated today!

I am having to remind myself that if i reach out to him, i will just be setting myself up for more disappointment.

Part of me thinks, if only i could find the right words and explain why his behaviour upsets me, he will get it and turn into a person i want him to be.

But from experience i know he won’t. Nothing will get resolved. He won’t suddenly say ‘yes, i see where you’re coming from, lets work on this together and get better as a couple, i care about your feelings’.

Will he?

This is how he is, and probably has been all the time, i just expected and believed he can give me more that he actually can. I need to adjust my expectations and beliefs about him to reality.
He is also now back on dating site where we met. So it didn’t take long to get over us, despite all i love yous etc. etc. which confirms to me that i was probably right pickihg up certain degree of coldness in him (but was ignoring it all along).

Do you honestly believe this was down to a more expensive lawyer? Doesn't this seem like a convenient excuse to distract you from what might be the real reasons? Honestly OP, some of his chat about his ex are absolute classic examples of a man being problematic in a relationship and blaming the "crazy" ex to his new, unsuspecting woman

I did honestly believe it. She had representation and he didn’t and it was a clear power imbalance in court (or so he said). As it made sense, especially as from the very beginning he started telling me stories about her that later served to confirm she was the narc. I did believe him because he came across as intelligent, calm and level headed, well not the sort of person who would be malicious and nasty. I don’t think he is spiteful and nasty but what do i know, im not sure anymore.
And i don’t have experience of fighting over kids in court so no idea how it works in real life.
I did start questioning things in my head later on though. When i noticed he never ever says sorry, can be cold and can (or at least tries) to logic his way out of admitting any wrongdoing.

He Sounds like the narc so confident in how Brian washing and lies he thinks he could represent himself as who would believe her.

My recent ex covert narc partner said the same about his two ex wives/court case over custody etc etc.
I believed him as he appeared to be an intelligent, calm, rational human being.
That's what you are meant to see.
Having only recently got in touch with both of them (seeking validation for what I went through with him), they both appear to be quite normal, level headed women who had such traumatic relationships with him.
Both are happily married now, both have professional jobs, both have loving families around them - and I know that isn't everything, but I instantly liked both of them. In another world they would have been women that I could have been friends with.
Both have since checked in on me to see how I am also. They are kind, compassionate women, like me, and we are prime targets for these broken men.

Everything I went through with him, so did they. He is a damaged human being that cannot be fixed and I finally realise that fixing him is not my job anyway.

Do you have an example of things you get upset by that he would try to logic his way out of apologizing for?

Edit: oh, I just caught up with the reading

I have put some more examples a few posts earlier on this page, one about him cirrecting my grammar and another one about the name he used to call me on his phone.

There were others too. At some point he made a crude sexual suggestion and whilst this wasn’t an exception in our comms (we both did that on occassion), that particular one landed wrong and i said it makes me feel like an object. Now in my mind, anyone in that situation would say sorry instantly, regardless of the fact we did it to each other. In my mind, regardless of why it upset me, it would be worth apologising because the other person is upset. Instead i got a number of messages questioning why im upset when we do it to each other and sort of proving that i got it wrong. Is that normal? I am fully prepared to hear that it is and i overreacted btw.

Him not apologizing for making you feel like an object is unsat. That’s not something you can just rationalize away. I’m voting LTB. You can do better.

Thank you for putting this on here. What i find confusing is, he is not mean in any way. But i cannot wrap my head around how he seemed more preoccupied with showing me that my feelings are incorrect and erroneous instead of focusing on bringing me (and us) back to a good place. It started to feel somehow… cruel.

People can be stubborn. I can be stubborn. But coupled with his past, the way it was presented just made me wary.

There is no way i would reach out to his ex so I will never know what really happened there.

Tonight i am doubting myself again. So i tell myself the same thing, i will wake up and see how i feel tomorrow. That is a good approach.

People can seem nice but really have a big ego, under the surface. There’s an MBTI type that would probably describe him; I think it’s INTP or ENTP. All logic, little emotional intelligence or willingness to be wrong. It sounds like he has a lot of growing to do before he is ready to be in a relationship.

Also the thing with the micro expressions… if your gut is telling you something is off there, you should probably listen to it.

I just RTFT. The crazy ex is a huge red flag, but tbh I wouldn't be able to cope with feeling pressure to apologise whether I meant it or not, just to diffuse a situation. I think it's a dysfunctional dynamic when someone takes responsibility for their partner's reaction/overreaction to a reasonable thing that was said or done. I'd feel really panicked and a bit like I was being made out to be a bad person if I was pressurised to apologise just to smooth things over, even if I didn't feel like I'd done anything to apologise for.
I'd also worry that a partner wanted an apology even if they knew that I didn't really mean it.

But all this is academic now anyway- You're not right for one another and that's okay!

@CatWithAGreenHat I have read this whole thread with grim fascination. This could absolutely be my ex and he also runs around shouting parental alienation to everyone who will listen. None of our (young teen) children will see him now. He absolutely will not accept any failings on his part in his parenting and is waiting (for nearly a year now) for apologies from the children. Men like this can be very confusing. I promise you, it took many, many years before I realised how mean my ex could be. It’s a very slow creep. After we split, I spent months trying to figure out if I was the problem, or even if, as he claimed, I was the abusive one. Then one day, I stumbled across this online and sobbed for hours realising the truth. I’m not sure if this will resonate for you, but try reading this and see if it helps… https://www.reddit.com/r/abusiverelationships/comments/11iw6cn/types_of_abusers_the_water_torturer/

If your partner said “I’m sad that you didn’t say ‘I love you’ back,” you wouldn’t respond with “Sorry hun, I was in a meeting,” or something simple like that? It doesn’t have to be a profuse apology or anything.

Or even “I don’t want you to be sad, love. I was just in a meeting. ILY” that way her feelings are acknowledged, even if they’re not totally reasonable. Instead of “you shouldn’t be sad because…”

One thing I’ve taught my DH to differentiate between is “I’m sorry you feel that way” and “I’m sorry I [made/my actions made] you feel that way,” because those are quite different and each have a time and place, you know?

This behavior will only get worse, not better. Look up DARVO. Listen to your gut....You are Right!!!

These are exactly my thoughts. I was never after a profuse apologies, just an acknowledgement and feeling like he cares.

He made me feel unloved.

Reading our messages there is a flavour of that. He was a fan of strong language like ‘do you realise that accusing me of xyz (when i haven’t accused him of anything, simply said i feel certain way) is borderline insulting?’ or ‘you are effectively accusing me of being unkind to you’. Prefaced or followed by listed reasons why i am unreasonable to feel certain way.

It was literally like hitting a brick wall trying to get him to understand.

Thank you for the link. Quite a bit of it fits although he wouldn’t mock me, sneer or do any of it in front of other people or be violent in any way. But then, we were 10 months in.

His facial expression wouldn’t change much even when i would be getting emotional, same serious cold eyes looking at me without much of emotion in them.

Sinking into silence- i can see how that happens, i felt like there is no point tellibg him when and why im upset because it would always go the same way. According to him, him and ex never talked about things which i found very strange as it hardly ever starts with silence, right. I think she might have felt like i did too, there is no point as she was never going to be heard or validated and he was always going to be right.

I think i had a lucky escape and a valuable lesson here.

I did honestly believe it. She had representation and he didn’t and it was a clear power imbalance in court (or so he said).

This is classic narc tbh.
She probably had a lawyer because her brain is fucking addled from dealing with him. He represented himself despite being able to afford a lawyer because he wanted to represent himself so everyone "could see" what she's like.

Agree with other this posters is a grimly fascinating read.

💯 do not text him or contact him again.

A lot of this looks familiar to me too. Particularly the one about being averse to confrontation. What that means is that you are not allowed to confront him. You are not allowed an opinion. He is observing you and has no respect for women. You have done so well - better than I did! I bet his ex-partners are nice decent women. It is difficult because they always have plausible deniability and work very very hard at convincing you and others that they are ‘good men’. I wouldn’t be surprised if at some stage he had told you what a good, straightforward and humble man he is’. It’s like they try to tell you what you must believe.