Your advice needed - split up or not

[CatWithAGreenHat]

Hi fellow mumsnetters, i could do with a bit of your insight and advice.

I’ve been with this man for about 10months now amd situation arose (again) which makes me question whether this is right for me. I will write down some facts that i think are relevant as objectively as i can and without passing my own judgement.

We are both divorced, i’m on friendly terms with my ex and we coparent and rub along allright. All i would expect from amicable divorce. My partner, he had a difficult divorce, she is a narcissist and gaslighted him etc etc. 3 kids, he sees 2 but not the eldest (complex situation i won’t go into at this point).

He is calm, analytical and we fit well in many ways. Similar world views, interests, financial attitudes and expectations from a relationship. We both are both after long term stable relationship and it’s going well, most of the time.

Thing is, over time i have noticed he can be very inflexible when it comes to me raising concerns about quite often something quite minor in his behavious that upsets me. He says he has no issue apologising if he’s done something wrong but to me it feels like that rarely happens. A lot of the times minor things escalate into bigger issues, i feel this is because instead of just saying ‘sorry, i see i upset you’, he starts analysing situation and proving thay there is no reason for me to be upset. So simple things that would be resolved with quick ‘sorry’ escalate into prolonged texts or emails where i feel like i have to prove why i got upset about particular issue.

We don’t argue as such. There is no shouting. We talk in texts or emails. That is a positive because in my marriage i was used to blazing shouty rows so this feels so much more level headed and calm. Still, im starting to feel that his reluctance to apologise is starting to really grate on me. He says because of his marriage, he will not apologise if he doesn’t feel he’s done something wrong. I can understand that. But i can’t help but start feeling resentful and unheard.

We are currently in one of the ‘arguments’ and we still send texts to each other signing out with xx and say ‘love you’ at the end of the day.

I am meant to see him on friday and have been thinking about this a lot. I feel like i cannot get upset ever because that will get invalidated when all i want is a quick sorry and us moving on from the situation. He seems to be incapable of doing that.

I am starting to wonder if this is right for me, in fact im starting to wonder if it is always me raising things needlessly. He thinks it is. But then part of me feels like this is not normal and it’s eroding something in me even though we have a lot of good things going.

Any advice? Thanks if you got to the end of this.

What is your gut telling you? It’s hard to judge based on the facts as described. For me, the key is not whether he is right/wrong and needs to apologise or not… but whether he shows consideration for your feelings. I would be wary of being made to feel that your feelings are wrong or don’t matter.

So for example if he replied to the love you example… Im just not comfortable sending personal messages at work, of course that doesn’t mean I don’t love you. I’ll make it up to you later. Not an apology but an explanation without putting you in the wrong. Would that be ok?

I am sorry OP, I did not read entire thread, but after reading your original post thought to myself that it is probably he who is narcissistic and not his ex. His behaviour reminds me so much of my exh. He was unable to apologize and would instead go into long discussions that would lead nowhere and after which I would be so confused. This is a very typical behaviour of a narc, defensiveness, gaslighting, deflecting to the point where you do not even know what you are arguing about. My ex never yelled or called me names, it was just very quiet and persistent mind torture.

It sounds like he values his feelings far more than yours - he won't apologize if he 'feels' he's done nothing wrong, but doesn't acknowledge that you feel upset and would like an apology.

Completely agree. Manipulative behaviour- invalidating your feelings and bit by bit training you not to expect empathy, accountability or to bother him with your feelings. All the while you’ll feel a mix of resentment, confusion, guilt, …. He needs be able to be curious about your feelings and attempt to understand. Setting boundaries is healthy but assigning himself judge in this situation and justifying it based on an ex makes you feel like you somehow owe it to him to meet his needs and abandon your own.

Also “calm and analytical” resonates op. If there’s no shouting (maybe not yet, maybe never) and opportunities to discuss things result in lengthy exhausting circular discussions where somehow your emotions are at fault and logic is the only permitted angle - you’re drawn into justifying your emotions with logic and they can be refuted logically then you don’t get emotional safety, emotional connection and he is asserting control. I know how I’d answer your original question- unlikely to change and most probably get worse .

Thank you for sharing your experience. Can i ask, apart from those never ending discussions, was your ex capable of being nice when things were good and calm? Like walk holding your hand, cook dinner and have perfectly normal nicr conversations? Did the long discussions and mind torture only happened when you raised issues?

I find that confusing in my partners behaviour.

OP, why won’t you share any other examples of when things have gone wrong? Your one example of you sending a text and not getting a reply during the working day doesn’t paint you in a particularly good light. It seems a bit picky tbh:

• you wanted to say “I love you” and you wanted that mirrored back to you - if he does say he loves you, does he have to reply in kind within a set deadline each time you tell him so?
• he explained why he hadn’t replied, it was a good reason
• you wanted him to apologise for not replying
• he didn’t think he was wrong not to reply - he was in a work meeting. So why should he apologise?
• he has a principle that he sticks to stubbornly and it creates this silly impasse. He could say sorry but why should he. He could say sorry your feelings were hurt and you might then feel heard. But the next time you text and he’s in a meeting what do you expect from him?

If all your examples are like this I think you’re blowing up tiny things into a big deal and he’s digging in. Neither is a helpful behaviour. And at 10 months in for it to be happening repeatedly sounds exhausting and not like a nice relationship for either of you.

I really wanted to reply to this saying that my gut feeling is telling me it’s all positive. But it’s not quite like that.

I just feel there is still a small part of me that can’t quite relax into being with him completely, it’s hard to explain. We spend time together, go out, hold hands, we talk about numerous things, we cuddle up and watch tv and it is all perfectly normal. There’s something in his microexpressions though that keeps me wondering. Certain degree of coldness i’d say.

It could be a number of things (including my imagination) however coupled with narc ex story, the fact that he seems to lack emotional intelligence and the eldest child thing… does make me wonder.

Tbh, i realise myself that i am having massive doubts about him (not for the first time) and surely that is a sign that we are incompatible, if nothing else. Or is it normal to feel like this at this point.

I think if you are having doubts, that is a sign that you aren't compatible. When I met DH, who is one of the good ones, I never doubted him. If a relationship is right, it is really easy, and feels right. Trust your gut.

Ah, so he doesn't feel it means he doesn't think it enough to say sorry. Totally not empathetic with you and actually sounds quite controlling with the if I don't feel it it's not happening.

Bin.

No, not normal at all. The certain degree of coldness is telling you something you need to listen to.

I couldn’t be with someone who tried to “logic” their way out of seeing my perspective. I’d feel invalidated and it would make me sad. Even if my point of view was not totally logical, I’d still want to feel he cared.

You describe it perfectly. Why do some men do this?

Hello OP, yes, my exh could be amazing. He was a great dad when kids were small (not so much later when they started talking back), for a very long time he cooked all our meals, he seemed to be a loving and caring partner. It took me a long time to start noticing things, like he was only nice if I did not complain, he did not mind shopping and cooking because this was his way of controlling things, especially spending, he loved buying something for me but only if it is something he approves of. As long as I went along with what he was doing he would be nice and sweet, but as soon as I start questioning his actions, or asking for something he did not want/like, he would start arguing with me. He never raised his voice, in fact, the angrier he got the lower his voice was. This was driving me mad. For the longest time I did not consider living him because I could not come up with the reason why. My therapist helped me with this by saying:" You do not need a reason to leave your husband. The mere fact that you want to is enough".

Later on, she also helped me understand that his behaviour was not normal; that it was controlling and toxic and that it was seriously affecting my health and well being. He was, quite literally, driving me mad.

Im re-reading this thread and this has given me some new things to think about.
I don’t think he’s ever tried to say sorry to the eldest or start the conversation that way, no matter what has gone wrong there.
In fact, he expressed the opinion he would be moved to one day get an apology from them.

Tbh, in the back of my mind i wonder if this is exactly how he was in his marriage, always right, invalidating her and explaining away anything she might have raised as an issue. He said they never had talks like that (like we do) but then im not sure i believe it. They probably did and she simply gave up after some time (i get why, it is exhausting and demoralising to be constantly told you are in the wrong).

I am seeing him later today, im feeling quite unemotional about it tbh. If he can show me a different, empathetic side then we might carry on seeing each other. Which realistically isn’t going to happen as that would have happened by now.

Im fine calling this off, there is nothing that binds us and tbh i’d rather have my peace than constantly live waiting for next exhausting dance to happen.

Hope it goes ok later, good luck OP

If these things are not important why do you keep raising them. They are either important enough to be an issue or trivial and should be let go. All this demanding apologies for the least little thing must get very tedious. It doesn't sound like the basis for a long term relationship.

His situation with his ex and him not seeing his eldest DC are huge reasons not to have dated him, even if what he’s told you is the truth, which is unlikely.

Plus you find him inconsiderate etc and are going round in circles this soon in the relationship.

And why did you continue dating him when he said HE would want an apology from his DC? Massive red flag.

Because it’s a complicated situation and it’s hard to know who’s right or wrong really. And because i did chose to see good in him.

He is not inconsiderate overall but definitely has some blind spots when it comes to empathy.

I suggest both of you read the book 'Us' by Terrence Real. My husband can be like that, it drives me insane although generally he comes round to the apology/acknowledgment of my feelings later, it's just in the moment that he can't accept responsibility. For him, it feels too threatening in the moment because of his awful upbringing. But he's working on it. He suggested that book and we've found it really helpful.

Issues i’m raising are not massive per se. What takes me aback is how something that can be sorted out quickly just seems to escallate into texts/emails and me having to prove my point and answer a list of questions.

Im struggling to understand whether it’s me overreacting and expecting too much or there is something in the behaviour he’s displaying i should be wary off. Especially considering the whole picture.

But then part of me feels like this is not normal and it’s eroding something in me even though we have a lot of good things going.

If this is how you feel 10 months in then he is not right for you. If you feel you are slowly being eroded by this man, then do not stay, no matter who is eventually 'right' or 'wrong'. It doesnt matter.

Just sounds like you are being trained to not have the emotions or to raise them with him.

and as for the coldness and micro expressions- your subconscious is noticing them and they make you feel uneasy. As I get older I believe more and more we should listen to our ‘hunches’ much more than we do. Evolution gave us powerful tools and we should not ignore them.

I’d ditch this one

Doesn’t matter who was/is right or wrong, between him/his ex - he brings a tonne of baggage/drama.

Anyone who could say that about the situation with their DC is unlikely to treat their partners well. He’s bad news.

Having just come out of a 15 year relationship with what I now know to be a passive aggressive covert narcissist, who explained away all his ex's as 'mental and narcissistic' I think you need to cut your losses and call it a day.

You are already starting to question the little niggling voices in your head that are telling you this is wrong, you are already starting to question if you are too emotional or too sensitive, you are asking for opinions from us lot of strangers on the internet.

Listen to that voice of reason in your head - she is your protector and she is waving those red flags at you!

You know it isn't right - don't get in any deeper with him.