We had the marriage and kids talk - not sure how I feel.

[Stanwyck]

Been together 18 months and never had this talk. I recently brought it up and he was like a deer in headlights - said let me think and come back to you.

So he started by saying this has been the best relationship he’s ever had so far. I told him the same. He was previously married, she divorced him 5 years ago.

In terms of marriage, he said he’s undecided about doing it again. Doesn’t see the overall benefits, but not against doing it again either - clearly not in a frame of mind for proposing so at least now I know.

He also said he wants kids and I do too. He said this was more important to him than marriage part initially.

He also added that I’m the well off one so he’d want me to get a pre-nup as he’s not after me for money!

He then said we have a lot more to agree and talk about before taking those steps - he clearly has issues in mind although he didn’t verbalise them.

A small voice inside me is worried that I’m a placeholder and there’s someone else he would marry. In theory I don’t feel marriage is crucial but I also feel sadness about never doing or having that ritual in front of our loved ones. Or never calling him husband.

I love him very much but I feel if I’d chosen a man without the baggage of divorce he might be more positive and excited!

If he hadn’t been through a divorce, I’d be more worried about his attitude, but in coming into this, he has seen the ‘messy’ side, the end and knows what that can be. You haven’t, and that’s lovely, but he can’t “un-see” it.It’s understandable to me that he would probably be a bit a bit more business like, and conscious of the practical and financial aspects of marriage, as well as the romantic side. For as much as no one seems to want to acknowledge it, in the UK marriage is an economic transaction - it gives and takes away/shares rights and property ownership. Frankly if more people understood it and approached things in this way, breaks ups would leave less disadvantaged parties -especially unmarried women who have children in the UK, as opposed to in Australia, where if you are unmarried but de facto, you are fine.

So whilst you may understandably be feeling a bit bruised that he didn’t come at this like you - rose coloured glasses, the romance and enjoyment of planning a celebration of your relationship with everyone - I think it is a normal reaction of his to be a bit more cautious, and if after consideration you do agree to marry, I’d think it would be a comfort to you to know it was with someone who saw the good and the bad of marriage, and loved you enough to commit to it.

You say he was ‘pragmatic and level headed’ but you also used the phrase deer in the headlights, which is telling. I think this is the time to listen to your gut. He sounds avoidant and ambivalent which isn’t great. He could end up wasting your best years. And yeah the right bloke would be on the same page about this stuff, really keen and unequivocal about marrying you, not hedging and dithering about uneasily! This would be a red flag alarm bells kind of chat.
sorry OP

I agree with @Talulahalula. I don’t think 18 months is very long really, and if his divorce was messy I can understand why he might want to take time to think it through. What were you hoping his response would be? A reflexive ‘yes!’? Marriage isn’t just about love and commitment, it’s primarily a legally binding contract. It sounds like you’re thinking of it as the former whereas he sees it as the latter, but it doesn’t sound like he doesn’t see a future.

"avoidant and ambivalent"?

married and divorced by your mid twenties must be impactful @ZeppelinTits?

Look: he doesn’t trust the two of you enough to think it will work. That is the long and short of it. Don’t discuss children unless you are marrying. But also don’t plan to be in the relationship ling term without marrying. Marriage is, obviously, no guarantee of future bliss. But if a man us too eishy washy to even pretend to want to be with me for the ling hail? Damned if I would hang around waiting for him to make up his mind.

It's totally fair that he can't commit to marriage after 18 months so that's reasonable but I think he should have an inkling, which it sounds like he does in terms of being with you. You probably just need to talk a bit more to see you're on the same page for the future

As PP said, marriage is a legal and primarily financial contract. I think your dp is right to see that.

So.. if you own property, and then marry... you could lose your home on divorce when assets are split. It's not necessarily a 50/50 split from day 1, but you will want independent legal advice on this.

If you intend to remain financially independent (returning to work after maternity leave), and advancing your earnings, then marriage may be of limited value to you.

Again, it's complicated. What if you fell ill or for some other reason could no longer work? What if you want to take a 6-year break from work and be sahm? And marriage includes claims on each others' pensions, decision-making rights in a medical crisis, etc. And, of course, emotional ties in a being a family in a very specific way that really appeals to you.

There's no one right answer - and I think your dp is right to think it through. As you should.

But marriage aside, he needs to be excited and happy to be with you. And he needs to want dc. With you. In the nearish future. That one is impossible to compromise on, if that's what you want.

You've clearly not married and divorced in your 20's if you think his reaction is a "red flag alarm bells".

Give the poor bloke a break, it's really tough going through a divorce and the thought of remarrying can be pretty fucking terrifying.

This, no marriage, no children. Don't be a placeholder. You are worth more than that.

The difference is that you have 10 years, he has forever. And so the balance of power will always be in his favour. He has no sense of urgency unless he wants a child with you and only you.

If he was 100% happy and settled, and was certain you were the one, he wouldn’t have to analyse it. I vote walk away too. (And I married someone who was divorced in their early 20s).

If you want to have children, you can’t waste time waiting for this man to commit. Don’t contemplate having children without marriage. You need to push him a bit more but if he’s still dithering, cut and run.

@ReadingSoManyThreads I think you’re right and I don’t want to be sensitive to this and his feelings, while also honouring my own needs.

I’ll be 33 later this year. If we’re going to have kids we can’t wait forever. Obviously he says he wants them, I now shortly need to talk about the timescale.

reflected in some replies I do have a doubt that maybe he’s not sure in the same way I am - and I don’t want to waste my time.

However, I AM the most content I’ve been in a relationship. Who’s to say I’ll find someone else I feel this way about? Because I certainly didn’t in my 20s and know there’s no guarantees.

He has done it before that may be why he is hesitant. I wouldn’t panic yet let him think it through and see if you’re on the same page. But he does need to be keen not just settling.

OP..did he say he wanted children… with you?

This conversation shouldn’t have come as a complete surprise to him if he’s seriously considered marrying you.

Tough one OP. More conversations certainly need to be had, and then you need to take decisive action. I hope it works out in your favour. I would be asking very frankly, do you see yourself married to/committed to me, or are you holding off because it's not what you want?

His divorce was several years ago and I wouldn't be letting that excuse hold up this relationships progress tbh.

Don't have kids without marriage. The contract protects you.

Based on your age you haven’t got lots of time to decide. If you want children and you want them with him then explain to him why you feel marriage is important for that.

If you break up with him over it then realistically you will putting off trying for children for several more years and there’s a good chance that may be outside of marriage.

Me too

Marriage isn't a material thing, a real thing that exists outside of our blind faith in it and the legal status inherent in it. It doesn't come with guarantees that your beloved won't up sticks, turn into a nasty little mean penny pinching freak and eventually a limp miserable moaning old man. There is no time limit on this and I've no facts just anecdotes but its a risk worth considering.

Children on the other hand, once gotten you are pretty glad you're stuck with them.

I made decisions that MN would frown upon and guess what, I have two great kids and no divorce behind me. I didn't give the ex a penny and walked away unscathed.

Many relationships fail. But kids are literally for life. At 33 I'd choose having kids and put the whole legal caboodle that is marriage to one side.

Unless you plan to give up work or he's wealthy what exactly does marriage offer other than a complete nightmare should you ever want to walk away.

I think you just have to tell him that the marriage part and the celebration of that, is going to be a big part of who you are and what you want. There is no shame in letting him know.

My Dh said to me early on "we can have kids, we don't need marriage for that" but I wanted to get married and I told him and then he got excited about it too. Our kids are now adults and we've been married over 20 yrs.

Men in their early 30's say a lot of stuff and then change it. Especially if they've been hurt / damaged previously.

How though? If she is the one with property?

I was in a similar situation a few years ago (boyfriend was a few years older than me and had been married before). We had the talk after around 3 years of being together as I wanted to know I wasn't wasting my time and I definitely wanted marriage and children.

Luckily the talk went well and he didn't want to lose me. I was prepared to walk away and start again if he had said no to marriage and children. We got married last year.

Yep!

We hear so much on MN about how women should be economically independent, which seems to contradict with this obsession for marriage.

It doesn't sound like he wants to jump ship. He said it's the best relationship he's ever had, and he's imagining kids with you. That sounds like a great spot to be in at 18 months. He obviously married vary young.