Shall kick out my ds?

[SugarPlumpFairyCakes]

He's 20 in March. He's done nothing since he was 16.

I don't know where he would go though.

He doesn't work. Doesn't study. He's asleep every day until 3 or 4pm.

He went to private school all his life. Had two extra years there because he failed his As levels twice. We live abroad. International private school that was quite flexible.

Says he applies for jobs. I don't believe him.

Does absolutely nothing around the house to help. Actively makes an awful mess in the kitchen. Consumes vast quantities of food.

His dad (my ex) took him and paid for him to do an access course. He did none of it.

I've made appointments for him in the past with doctors. He just didn't go to the appointments so I don't do that anymore.

I am getting very snippy, almost nasty to him when I come home from work and the kitchen is a total mess again or he's blocked the toilet and then he asks me for lifts to the gym.

I feel irritated at the sight of him. Would kicking him out not knowing where he would go an act of severe unkindness?

He seems to think he's entitled to be financially supported because he is my son.

I cannot see our relationship ever recovering from this as once he's out, I would never let him back in to live with me again whatever his problems. He denies he does nothing. Denies the evidence before both of our eyes. It's bizarre.

Yes I have.
I have broken my back bending myself out of shape getting him through his excellent degree.
Put my life completely on hold as he wanted to finish it, despite not liking it.
Gave him nothing but praise, support, love and my time, to help him complete it.
Drove him everywhere so he didn't have to bother with public transport.

He is finally attending an excellent psychologist.
Privately educated with every comfort and opportunity.

I absolutely believe there to be a personality disorder, combined with an utter selfishness to his core.

He is morose, dismissive and monosyllabic unless he wants something.
He is chatty, cheerful and engaged with friends when I hear him on the PS4 when he calls occasionally.

He can take no input whatsoever, is quite nasty at times in response to the most benign suggestions of self help.

He has thankfully moved out and has learnt to boil an egg, but is barely holding down his excellent graduate program position with a great multinational.

As parents we have gone far beyond what is normal to support him.

He was particularly nasty in his dismissal of me last weekend and I am taking a step back to protect myself.

We did too much, we gave too much, we facilitated far too much.

My parents didn't do even 1% of what we have done willing for our son over the past 25 years.

No matter what you imagine it is like living with this through your professional career, it doesn't touch the reality of what it is like living with the endless anxiety/negativity of worry about them.

This is good advice. He needs help with the next step . ‘Get a job’ will be alien to him.
Can he see a careers advisor who might recommend a vocational course for him ? Plumbing ? Electrician ? Gym instructor if he likes the gym?
he needs to think about what he LIKES and is interested in - and go from there.
it is very important that he books the appointment though - not you .
And I would insist that he gets up by 9 am and gets on a normal circadian rhythm.

OpenOliveCat

Im only stating the facts and telling op kicking them out doesn’t make them suddenly find a place get a job and deliver flowers home to mammy like people on mn seem to think. As I said he was a lovely guy but I should have said I absolutely don’t agree with her or with anyone threatening to lick someone out of their home.

OP, your situation reminded me of this.

Two and a half years ago I had a cousin's 22-year-old son from New Zealand arrive to stay with me for a couple of weeks while he found a job. He arrived, he spent his days in bed or eating me out of house and home, expecting to be cooked for and have his washing done. He had his heart set on the kind of job you only really have a chance of getting if you're in London/ SE and we're 300 miles away. He was doing the occasional half-arsed job applications on line and then sitting back expecting them to call him — and after a month he hadn't had a single whiff of a job offer. I gave him a two-week deadline to get his act together. A friend's son came round and talked to him about a couple of 'nice' private hostels he'd stayed in when training in London and gave him all the contact details. Fortunately my friend's DS reinforced what I was saying: that he'd have to take a job, any job, for a few months and then do what he could to build up contacts and get a toe into the field he was aiming at. After the two weeks and still no sign of action from him, I told him he was leaving and going to London in five days and gave him his one-way coach ticket. His final words to me, as he boarded the coach were 'Why couldn't you have bought me a train ticket, why do I have to sit for six hours on the coach instead of three on the train?'

He stayed in an AirBnB for a fortnight, then got a place in a shared Kiwi house in west London. He worked for six weeks on a building site in central London with one of the guys he was sharing with, then had an interview for a job he didn't get, but the guy who interviewed him called him later and gave him a useful contact. As a result of that he got a couple of short contract projects in the field he was set on, then landed a 'proper' job. He's never spoken to me since boarding that bus: I assume I'll forever be the horrible woman who threw him out and put him on a coach to London. I hope one day he realises that he has me to thank for making him what he is. Otherwise he'd probably still be here, in my spare room.

It is odd I have three other dcs who are absolutely nothing like my eldest dc who is apparently indulged and spoiled and a life failure.

Op life failure is a pretty rough way of thinking about this. You seem to be so annoyed that you can’t see him any more. I honestly think the two of you need to try to reconnect (good old fashioned board game night, movie night or out for food). Try to have a laugh and try to see him as your son not as an irritation

Yeah you are going to get quoted because allowing yourself to become a doormat for your child isn’t gentle parenting. I hope that helps.

Yup

Does he go out at night? Any chance there’s drug use involved?

Regardless, 4 years doing next to nothing is far too long. He either needs to accept medical help or learn tough love. It sucks and it’s very draining for you but ultimately it is for his own good.

Not quite the same as he finished uni etc but my brother took ages to accept the responsibilities of just… general life, really. He only started working at 27 and truly because he 100% ran out of options. Working for 2 years in a backbreaking shift job and it was the best thing that could have happened to him. He’s now doing very well in life, great money and super organised. His house is spotless.

In my son's case it was the equivalent of the job centre (not in the UK) and some free language classes that I managed to force him to go to, which shared premises with a welfare-to-work company where he ended up doing a "course" of sorts and met his gf. The language classes were aimed at asylum seekers but he did very well and got some experience as a volunteer interpreter. Meeting other young and/or foreign people and having input from professionals (mostly useless apart from the language tutor, but still...) was what got him out of his rut. Me nagging him alone never had any effect.

It's a combination of finding solidarity among youngsters in a similar situation (if he can be trusted not to fall in with the wrong sorts) and being effectively ganged up on by adults in authority, that can work. Obviously I wouldn't recommend this in the UK where the JobCentrePlus or whatever it's called is now harsh and punitive, but the services on your country might be better.

I wont play a part in demonising him, sounds like he’s very unhappy and If I was OP I would be trying to support his mental health and focus on everything else once he has some motivation to actually get better himself.

However suggesting eventually she will be able to dump him, as he is, on a young woman/man and expect him or (lets be honest) probably her to parent this man is ridiculous! He doesn’t seem to have that many great qualities right now and isn’t in a position to be in a healthy relationship.

Charge him rent. Give him a contract —£x per calendar month, first payment March 1st. He has the choice to pay instead of the gym and phone , get a job or get out. No other options. Sometime you’ve got to be harsh. Or as I call it realistic.

Your advice is to suggest a trade for someone incapable of managing his life.

Do you understand facilities/infrastructure design, planning and installation aren't suitable for this person? If he doesn't like life now, he won't like it in the brutal construction industry. 🙄

This is such a difficult situation.

What he's doing isn't healthy or normal. Presumably there's a mental health/psychological/psychiatric element to it.

Things can't continue as they are. It sounds like you have tried every option other than telling him he has to move out. If he moves out with no job and nowhere to go he is likely to reach crisis point fairly quickly. Maybe that's what needs to happen before things can turn around. Maybe he needs to be at crisis point before he can engage with mental health services.

Of course, it's easy for me to say this because it's not my son. You have my sympathy.

A private assessment for ADHD is less than the autism one. You could get one sorted pretty fast if you pay. You have him assessed and diagnosed then you've got access to ADHD meds which might change his life and yours.

I've had to research extensively for my teen because something is needed to help this problem. People have said this has been life changing once they knew and tried meds.

I'd seriously be lining this up and make engagement in the assessment non negotiable. Do this son or xyz - whatever that is. It's not the same as sitting in front of a psychologist. Most ND people do badly on front of a random psychologists who know nothings about their struggles. If you sell this other line to him there's some hope. If he is ND this could be a gigantic relief and then boot up the arse for him in a positive way.

Sorry I haven’t read the full thread, but my son had a lazy year. I could never have thrown him out. He was given ultimatums, and he did decide on university in the end. It’s been the making of him. He’s having a great time, living in halls, cooking and shopping for himself. I’m so bloody proud of his attitude to study and how well he’s been doing, most recent mark 72, which I know doesn’t count yet, but he’s working at a first.
They need a nudge, they need a serious talk, to loose their allowances etc but no, I couldn’t make my own son homeless, so I hope you decided against that. I know it’s hard and harder still due to lack of jobs and opportunities, lack of real ability to get on the housing ladder etc. it must feel like such a mountain to climb for kids/ young adults these days.

@FondantFancyFan I think the link to ADHD is spot on and I hope OP you stop ignoring what we are waving in your face here. Get that kid assessed for love of god and that is what you bargain with. You get assessed son or THIS.... You're going to have to pay for it I fear but the dad, can he put his hand in his pocket. I'd be kissing his ass quite frankly to get the money out of him.

Fondant - it's cruel to say that to OP. I've said often to myself that my teen is an absolute cunt. You know why - because he's behaving like one and the behaviour has driven me into hospital literally! So being able to offload sometimes in a safe space is essential so we don't end up throttling them. 🙏

Can you expose him to some male role models he can look up to? Older men might like including a younger man in going to the pub, watching football etc? I think he needs to get included with groups a bit more so the focus isn't 'what's wrong with him' but 'what are we doing right now'. Just having a few more contacts should broaden his perspective and make things seem possible. I don't know where you would find ex-military personnel but they might be helpful especially as they could give him insight into possible careers. Given his lack of experience and qualifications but his physical fitness and youth the military sounds like a good idea, it could be the making of him.

How has he ended up like this. How did you bring him up. Sounds like you did everything for him. He is very spoilt.

I agree with the comments about ADHD but how do you get him assessed if he refuses to go?

This is the difficult part.

It's either bribery with a reward that's meaningful. Telling him you need to engage in this son because I believe this will eventually help improve your life. I want you to go to this assessment - it won't be the same as the psychologist ( who probably knows nothing about it). You have to take some ownership here son because I can't continue like this. '

Like the other poster who kindly detailed their own situation where they said this has to happen or the child couldn't stay. Something has to be negotiated with and it has to be significant. I don't know what OP is able to see throughout and do if he refuses to engage but a consequence has to be given.

If you actually talk to him and suggest ADHD or Autism he'll probably feel relieved tbh. He'll start looking it up online, almost guaranteed.

Yes, you should kick him out. Something like Wetherspoons is a pretty safe bet as far as getting a job goes, they will take convicts and as long as you have all your limbs, you can do the job. Kitchen if you don’t have great social skills, bar if you’re a bit more social. It’s not a career (unless you want it to be, there is progression) but it’s almost a guaranteed hire unless you are truly incompetent at interviewing. When I left home that was my first job and it paid the bills and also taught me some… life lessons.

Let’s go back 50 years and look at the average man his age then and the often enormous responsibilities they had and managed perfectly well

True.

Did they manage though? Or did it turn out most of them were depressed and abused their wives and children in some way or another because they couldn't cope? Alcoholics ect

I am in my 60s and even in my generation, people (men and women) became and were treated as adults well before 25 and most did not go on to be depressed, abusive alcoholics. Same applies to previous generations.

That said, we don't know what's going on with OPs son, perhaps there is something that he needs help with but as he is point blank refusing to engage with anything that might lead to this, I would be giving an ultimatum-either he actively engages with therapy, diagnosis or whatever and starts seeking any form of work within X months or he will have to leave. Carrying on as he is shouldn't be an option, because it is not helping him, as well as the effect on the OP and this pattern of behaviour will become more entrenched.

Also, I don't think encouraging application for pilot training is in any way realistic or sensible.

What have the conversations been like with him? What are you saying exactly? Sometimes a different approach can take the defensivensss out of a situation and improve things greatly.

Another, extreme, way to make your point is to immediately stop all money he receives and put locks on all your kitchen doors and fridge so he cannot help himself to food. When he inevitably complains you remind him you're too tired to pick up after him, too skint to pay for him, and he's not responded to being asked nicely to eat more considerably and tidying up after himself so he will be treated like a toddler - only given what he needs when you decide to.

These threads always go the same way.

How parenting is for life and the young adult may be ND. This is codependency between two adults, where the parent gets validated as a carer and the young adult is incentivised to behave like a helpless child.

Of course, sometimes young adults are severely ND and need care, but for every one of these there are 9 perfectly capable young adults (even if ND) who would be much happy if encouraged to lead independent lives.

Of course, a parent should always be there to help with advice if wanted, and the occasional leg up financially if they are able. But this should all be scaffolding towards full independence, not an end in itself.

He should be given a certain amount of time to find a job and move out, and that time frame shouldn’t be too long. In the unlikely event that he ends up sleeping rough (the threat people like to use on here) you can always reconsider. But he has a father and friends.

As I have said upturned, people respond to incentives. If he needs money, he will try to find a way to earn it. If he doesn’t, why would he?

Who pays for the gym, food etc? Life is not free. Stop funding him. If he wants a phone, gym, clothes, any food and drink apart from the bare minimum, he has to buy them. He should also contribute to your household finances - start giving him a bill.
If there are other issues he must get them sorted. Otherwise he gets a job.