Shall kick out my ds?

[SugarPlumpFairyCakes]

He's 20 in March. He's done nothing since he was 16.

I don't know where he would go though.

He doesn't work. Doesn't study. He's asleep every day until 3 or 4pm.

He went to private school all his life. Had two extra years there because he failed his As levels twice. We live abroad. International private school that was quite flexible.

Says he applies for jobs. I don't believe him.

Does absolutely nothing around the house to help. Actively makes an awful mess in the kitchen. Consumes vast quantities of food.

His dad (my ex) took him and paid for him to do an access course. He did none of it.

I've made appointments for him in the past with doctors. He just didn't go to the appointments so I don't do that anymore.

I am getting very snippy, almost nasty to him when I come home from work and the kitchen is a total mess again or he's blocked the toilet and then he asks me for lifts to the gym.

I feel irritated at the sight of him. Would kicking him out not knowing where he would go an act of severe unkindness?

He seems to think he's entitled to be financially supported because he is my son.

I cannot see our relationship ever recovering from this as once he's out, I would never let him back in to live with me again whatever his problems. He denies he does nothing. Denies the evidence before both of our eyes. It's bizarre.

If I left school at 16 my mum would have killed me. It wasn't an option. Being brought up and allowed to leave and then do sod all, you've enabled him and it's your own fault for not being strict so I don't think its fair kicking a young lad out of his house when he clearly has zero life skills thanks to the enabling.

What's his relationship with his siblings like? Doesn't it bother them that he's just mooching around doing nothing?

The Army?

My two coppers: Most young people don't want to hang around their parent's house doing nothing, year after year. I don't think he's likely just trying to get away with something. That might sound attractive to us older people who know how rough it can get out there, or to someone in ill health who is past middle age. But it actually sounds to me like a pretty sad and stunted life for a 19/20 year old.

So, I'd wager he has some kind of undiagnosed disability. Unfortunately, he also sounds very non-compliant with the various forms of assistance that have been offered to him, which is not unusual with certain disorders.

Additionally, I'd imagine his self-esteem is close to zero, at this point. I'm sure he knows he's not living up to any reasonable standard.

I would definitely not kick him out, as has been mentioned. That is assuming his behavior is deliberate and in his control, which is a big assumption when he would be very vulnerable out on the streets. In my opinion, discovering more about what his issues truly are would be needed first.

So, what to do? I'm not in the UK so I don't know what's available there. But I'm wondering if the OP could sort of go to therapy on his behalf for a couple of sessions. If they would go for something like that, trying to get a working diagnosis of the son by proxy and determining a course of action from there, including the best way to motivate him to comply with whatever's decided. I'm sure the professionals have dealt with this issue before. Sorry, that's all I got. Best wishes with it, OP.

It's obviously difficult for you to negotiate changes in his behaviour because he's not totally dependent on you to finance his life. Are there any areas where he does rely on you, eg lifts to the gym, that you could use as a bargaining tool to get something you want? He has been able to focus and apply himself to get fit and strong physically so he can achieve things he really wants to. I don't have personal experience of your situation but you have my sympathy.

Sorry to quote myself. Just wanted to add I wouldn't take his gym membership away either, as has been mentioned, when that may be his only legitimate source of pride in himself right now. Yep, I think the best way to proceed now would be to figure out how to get a thorough evaluation done on him, before taking further action.

This. Tell his father what you have done; get his support to take a similar tack.
I would also go WITH him to see a phychologist about him moving out. And go with him to see a job agency. Two appointmetns with him and stick to your time frame.

He needs to be kickedout for his own development. You don't need him setting a bad influence in your home for the other kids.

But can be teachers, nurses etc from 21? You're talking rubbish.

I don't mean to be a negative Nancy here but just a possible thought for those who have decided he's just spoiled or whatever. This reminds me of a man I used to work with, whose teenage son would play his keyboard for hours and hours, instead of doing anything productive.

The son finally told him he did it to "drown out the voices in his head." In this son's case, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Of course it was very sad but he was able to reach a much more positive place with his son after discovering that he was actually ill, not just a lazy and obstinate mooch.

But, hopefully, this problem will just turn out to be a bumpier-than-usual ride toward full adulthood or at least a less serious problem.

Something else that crossed my mind, just if you feel like answering, did all this begin at about age 16 or has he always had difficulties? If it did seem to begin at a certain age, do you have any reason to think he could have experienced any kind of trauma then? Anything from an assault to a head injury or anything else serious?

I'm probably just blabbing on too much but I also knew a woman whose husband was electrocuted at work and in his case, his personality changed and he became volatile and violent.

So I guess my point here is just how many different possible causes there could be for this behavior, where the "tough love" stuff would just be cruel, as well as unproductive.

He sounds depressed, OP.

Have you approached him with kindness and curiosity and asked him what he wants out of life? How he feels about his current life? He doesn't sound happy. You could gently explain to him that he can't carry on like this, that it's bad for him, and that it's time to find something to do that he would like instead of wasting his life away. There must be something he would like to do.

Of course, if he has an imbalance in the brain which is making him like this, he will need medication. I do hope you can persuade him to see a doctor.

I definitely wouldn't kick him out, considering how depressed he sounds. His behaviour is abnormal for a young person - usually they're dying to leave home.

It sounds as if you're at the end of your tether and could do with some space from him. Could you go away for a few days somewhere? I know you shouldn't have to, but it might be a good idea for your relationship with him, and to give you a break from a difficult situation.

Sounds v stressful for you all. I don’t think you should ask him to leave.

He doesn’t sound untypical of a teenager with nowhere to be. Lots of them are nocturnal and messy at that age. Going to the gym is a v positive sign and shows he wants to be productive, look after himself and get out of the house. I’d definitely keep encouraging and supporting that. Also a good way to meet new friends and hear of opportunities.

Difficult to suggest solutions without knowing more about his life events (not asking to share, as you shouldn’t breach his privacy). But there are lots of young people struggling right now due to the impacts of the pandemic. He would have been 15 when it started. That’s a tough age generally (lots of angst and hormone turmoil) and the age kids usually start to be more independent, move away from family life and go out with friends. Difficult to know how it may have affected him, especially if you weren’t in the UK: how severe the lockdowns were etc.

What had his life been like up to that point? Try to walk yourself through his life: when siblings were born, when you split with his dad and what led up to and followed that, any moves of home or school, any relationships you’ve had since, his relationships with extended family, family friends and friends his own age. Try to imagine how those things may have affected him. If he’s the eldest, does he feel extra responsibility to you and his younger siblings?

Sounds like he’s stuck in a rut. IME constantly suggesting solutions doesn’t help young adults. It can add to the pressure and can be counterproductive. They have to be allowed to figure it out, (and feel they’re doing it) for themselves. Likewise, pushing mental health or psychological support too much. They need normalcy, fun opportunities and routine to build connections and find purpose.

Do you have support from family and friends who can help guide him? Does he have any strong male role models in his life? If not, is there anyone who may be willing to step into that role for a bit? Do you try to have fun at home, with him involved? Games evenings, movie nights, cooking together, walks? Days out? Does he see any friends regularly? Could you support that? Is there anyone who might be able to ask him to help them out with jobs, even if they can’t pay him? Painting someone’s house? Helping them with DIY? If there is, ask them to ask him directly, and make it clear he’d be doing them a favour because they could do with a hand, rather than because they want to help him. Don’t get involved or let on you’ve suggested it. Otherwise, he’ll feel patronised or you’re interfering and may refuse.

What you should set clear boundaries about, though, is his responsibility at home. Calmly let him know how you feel when you walk through the door to a load of mess. Ask him if he thinks it’s fair he doesn’t pull his weight with household chores when you’re a busy working mum. Ask if he’d cook dinner. Ask if he could do certain tasks. And thank him very much for doing them. It might gradually build his responsibility and pride.

Try to focus on the positives. He’s alive, physically healthy and going through a rut somewhere safe, where you can keep an eye on him and support him. Try to focus on yourself and your other DC. Sounds like you have a busy life. Try not to take your stress out on him. Look after yourself. He’ll sort himself out eventually if you take the pressure off.

Absolute infantilising bullshit. No wonder we have the issues we do in the world now with male entitlement when people genuinely think a man in his early 20s or even mid 20s is a child. Let’s go back 50 years and look at the average man his age then and the often enormous responsibilities they had and managed perfectly well and then tell me that a 25 year old is a child. Whoever published that thing about brain development has a lot to answer for. Stop making excuses for pathetic men - every single awful man is someone’s beloved son (and equivalent for pathetic women but you don’t tend to get quite as much cock-lodging from women, strangely).

OP give him a deadline and say that if things don’t improve he has to move out and live with his dad or shock horror get a job and live independently. Don’t put up with this crap or be made to feel bad. He has agency and can choose not to behave like this.

I don't think anything ND he might have leads to being a dirty pig

It does. Look up adhd/autism. It's so so common

Let’s go back 50 years and look at the average man his age then and the often enormous responsibilities they had and managed perfectly well

Did they manage though? Or did it turn out most of them were depressed and abused their wives and children in some way or another because they couldn't cope? Alcoholics ect

I'm in my 30's and I can safely say, a lot of people in their 20's are still children. They don't think properly and are impulsive ect.

He has agency and can choose not to behave like this

Your assuming he can choose. If he is ND it won't be a choice.

Ah okay so domestic abuse happens because men are actually still children and can’t cope? Of course adult men coped and it’s a gross exaggeration to say they were all depressed and became abusers. I mean honestly listen to yourself. It’s a very recent thing to make excuses for people based on them being children in their 20s. I’ve seen people on social media excuse bad behaviour because they are “only young” when they are nearly 30 years old.

Yes people in their 20s make dumb decisions sometimes. So do people of other ages by the way. Calling them children and coddling them helps nobody.

This man is a lazy entitled pig by the sounds of it. If it was his girlfriend or wife posting about his behaviour, everyone would tell her to get rid. Yet his mum and siblings are expected to put up with this? Blocking the toilet and leaving the kitchen a tip.

Did they manage though? Or did it turn out most of them were depressed and abused their wives and children in some way or another because they couldn't cope? Alcoholics ect

Ah okay so domestic abuse happens because men are actually still children and can’t cope? Of course adult men coped and it’s a gross exaggeration to say they were all depressed and became abusers. I mean honestly listen to yourself

I didn't say all, read things properly before you start ranting away to yourself 🤣

Yet his mum and siblings are expected to put up with this? Blocking the toilet and leaving the kitchen a tip

No one on this thread has said OP should pit up with it what on earth are you talking about 🤣🤣 are you okay? Keep making stuff up to be angry about.

https://www.adhdfoundation.org.uk/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/

@SugarPlumpFairyCakes
It saddens me that you treat your own child with such hatred and use terms like 'dirty pig' to describe him. As well as deliberately picking fights & making him uncomfortable, this is abusive. Shame on you.

You've not prepared him for adult life by not having him assessed for neurodiversity & MH issues. You've also enabled his lifestyle so it's come to the point where he can't fend for himself. That's on you & you respond by pitting him against his siblings & treating him like shit.

There's a lot of misplaced anger & blame going on & you think kicking him out will suddenly make him a functioning human. I'm not surprised that there's a massive MH crisis amongst young people especially young men. You've failed to teach him essential life skills by not investigating why he's struggling.

My brother was the same way, so lazy. My parents ended up kicking him out, he was given 3 months. He did leave, and it was such a relief for our parents. They too were confused as to.where they'd gone wrong, but their other two adult.child moved out at 16 and 21. My brother was in his 30s! He said he's glad it happened as he got.on the property ladder and made a family. He said he would have stayed there forever because it felt easy e.g helped himself.to food, didn't have to pay bills or buy/fix/wash anything. Your son is incredibly lazy. I agree about the navy being a great career path, it was the making of a relative who's now an engineer (left school with nothing!) Set him a date to.leave by, if he asks where to go, advise him of the navy. You are doing him.no favours by allowing him to be a lazy man child.

At that age my son would have been the same but the house rule was very much you MUST be either in education or employment. He went from job to job for a while but did eventually settle somewhere for a couple of years.
Now he's 23 and has returned to education and is going on to uni next year.
I think it's a phase a lot of kids go through tbh. My son seemed to mature a lot later than females of the same age in the family.

If it was me I would be having the difficult conversation saying he either goes back to education or starts employment or he has to move out. Can he live with his father if needs must? There may is other psychological issues at play but at the end of the day you can't force him to attend appointments etc so I would leave that issue for now. I would also pick your battle and not focus too much on stuff around the house. The biggest issue is that he starts getting on with his life and making moves forward so I would focus on that. Good luck! I know how difficult it can be at times.

@SugarPlumpFairyCakes

So if you talk to him, in a non confrontational way - what does he want from life? What does he plan to do? Does he feel like a failure?
I think giving him an ultimatum - you have 3 months to start helping/getting a life plan together or you are out??
Where would he go if you told him to go? You mentioned a gf? Would he just do the same to her?

This is the child YOU created. What sort of childhood did you give him?! Sounds like he’s depressed and has no aspirations. And now you come online to cuss him. This is YOUR doing. I hope you get that? Now be an actual supportive parent and guide him properly.

Dear me. I do wonder how old your children are and what life experience you have. Blaming the parents is easy. There are so many other factors. Sometimes despite the best will in the world and loving your child to the ends of the earth, it is not enough. Often people find themselves in very difficult situations , without guidance and support, and do the best they can. It is absolutely life destroying to find yourself in a situation where one of your children can't navigate life and there is no one else to help.

what a totally negative thing to say- and I maybe wrong but you say you have a 5 year old, so as yet have no idea what a minefield of difficulties can occur in teens and young adults

I have already mentally planned for this time (my oldest is 13) and I have started narrative with him around living at home past school age. The expectation set is if they are in full time education, attending and showing effort and meeting targets set by the education faculty then they can live at home, rent free and will have a small allowance for personal items ( but if they want trips out, holidays etc this won’t cover it so they will need to find part time work). If they are not studying they pay rent to live here with no allowance, but access to food / meals etc ( cheaper than private landlord but will mean they will have to work). I probably will save the rent and use it to help them later in life with car/ house deposit, if they show willing and take responsibility. My intention with this approach is to encourage further education then when they start to work they have to budget like the rest of us. In your situation OP it is not too late, first cut off things like lifts to the gym, if they have money coming from investments that is an income so he should pay you rent. Set a deadline for paying a reasonable amount of rent and that gives him time to find work. I have ND and it is not an excuse to be out of work, if anything my hyper focus is a great quality to many employers. If he can’t find a paying job maybe he could volunteer so he gets into a routine of getting up and ready for the day. This should get his head in the right place. If he still does not do anything then I would be locking the kitchen and allowing him to join for family sit down meals only. If you are going out to work then he should be out of the house while you are there ( drop him off / pick him up at a volunteering job)

This

Maybe he would prefer to do something more practical? I’ve noticed on mn people often feel that btecs are useless and some sort of admission of failure, but they can be fantastic courses.

IP’s son did academic courses, then more academic courses then tried to get him on a compressed academic course.

Maybe he needs something else.