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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Women who think it is ever ok to date/meet/chase/text/more a married man are indeed slappers??

200 replies

macdoodle · 05/05/2008 23:15

I have been criticised on a number of occasions for calling the OW a slapper but recent comments on MN have led me to believe that this is true...am I wrong??

OP posts:
cestlavie · 06/05/2008 17:54

Dittany, and I say this honestly and without being sarcastic, you clearly are a person with very strong principles that you determinedly live by. The vast majority of people, however, are not able to live up to their ideals for many reasons, some within their control, some less so. It's easy to condemn those who fail to do so, but harder to understand - walk a mile in my shoes etc.

Note, this is not to excuse anyone who has an affair in the slightest. But simply to reflect that life isn't always as straightforward as principles would suggest.

dittany · 06/05/2008 18:01

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Lulumama · 06/05/2008 18:05

i thoroughly agree with dittany

nothing is beyond our control

but throw in sexual attraction, desire, lust, selfishness, maybe some alcohol, and we shut off the part of us that stops us doing foolish and hurtful things

cestlavie, your post seems so defeatist, like there is no point trying to live up to moral standards ..

life is not simple, especially where emotions are involved, so principles should be a reminder in the cold light of day of how it is appropriate to live life

cestlavie · 06/05/2008 18:07

The 'some within their control, some less so' did not refer specifically to affairs but people's inability to live up to their ideals more generally.

As you say, you don't want to be involved in hurting other people. I'm sure most people would agree with that sentiment. If you asked 100 women, "Would they like to have an affair with a married man that may result in devastating his family?" 99% of them would say "Of course not". Clearly, however, more than 1% do. For whatever reason, people fail to live up to their principles.

dittany · 06/05/2008 18:11

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cestlavie · 06/05/2008 18:27

Dittany, fortunately I don't think I've ever been in a position where my principles have been meaningfully tested (e.g. stepping into a violent fight). If they were, I'd hope I'd do the right thing, but I can't say for sure until that's happened.

I'm not saying that we can't say people are wrong to have an affair but to then immediately condemn them in every circumstance without looking any further seems to me, at least, wrong.

To use your drink-driving analogy, what happens if a person was pulled over and was over the drink drive limit, what should penalty be? Should it be an absolute? What about where a person was 3 times over the limit after boozing all afternoon in the pub and was on their way to the next pub vs. someone who was 1.5 time over the limit and was trying to get their sick child to hospital?

dittany · 06/05/2008 18:31

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hls · 06/05/2008 18:42

Dittany- I wonder how old you are? Don't want to be ageist, but when you have been around the block a bit like me, you might have more tolerance.

You are perhaps lucky in some ways never to have been less-than-perfect in your behaviour, and to set yourself very high standards, which you have always managed to live by. I have very high standards too- but I think being mature is also about showing humility and tolerance - and trying to understand that people are fallible.

In an ideal world, there would never be divorce, with or without affairs contributing to it, there would never be broken hearts, we would all keep our promises all of the time, and never hurt anyone, by saying anything unkind,- even on MN!! People would marry and never realise they had made a terrible mistake- and then meet someone whom they thought showed them the love they didn't have in their marriage. Sometimes they would meet that person, very inconveniently, before they got divorced.

There is a big difference between people who just want a bit on the side and have no intention of ever leaving their partners- and people who exist in hollow relationships, often too scared to leave, and are then prompted to leave because they meet someone else.

But going back to the original point- relationships are much more complex than you seem to want to understand, and they are never just black and white.

wildhorses · 06/05/2008 18:44

hls
You are spot on

hls · 06/05/2008 19:14

thanks WH.

ginnedup · 06/05/2008 19:48

Of course life isn't a bowl of roses but why is it that there is no honesty any more.
Sure marriages go wrong, people fall out of love, meet the right person at the wrong time, but why on earth can't these men be honest and end one relationship before starting on the next. Why do they have to lie and cheat and devastate their families so that they can have their cake and eat it.
(can you tell this has happened to me
Seriously, I'm not bitter and twisted, but surely if you love someone enough to marry them then you owe them the respect to end it kindly and amicably before moving on.

ginnedup · 06/05/2008 19:50

and what I meant to say was that the OW is as much to blame as the H because she should not get involved with a man who is not available.

dittany · 06/05/2008 19:57

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dittany · 06/05/2008 19:59

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PersephoneSnape · 06/05/2008 20:02

when i was 23, i married and within the space of two years left my husband for a married man. we went on to have three children together, (at least neither of us had children in our current marriages - and guess what happened? yes, after eight years or so, he left me for a single woman without children, and when he'd had a child with her? left her for a married woman without children.

I ma deeply sorry for any hurt i caused my ex partners ex wife, as i am sorry that i hurt my husband - but Karma bit me full-time on the a$$. i am that (ex)slapper. i am bitter and twisted ( ) but I do believe that you can help who you choose to fall in love with. married men are toxic, I really don't have the energy.

littlewoman · 06/05/2008 20:19

People used to have more of a social conscience, especially when they lived in small villages / towns and would have been dragged through the streets by their neighbours, being called names, for this kind of behaviour.

Focus has changed, and now the rights of the individual comes first. It's just a sociological shift really. Clearly some people live to the old standard, others to the new. But if you ever happen to get your heart ripped out by an OW or an OM, you are entitled to call them what you like as you have your individual rights too.

glitterball · 06/05/2008 20:52

as others have said, hls you are spot on.

there are many serial adulterers.........but there are also a lot more men (and women) in crap relationships being treated like dirt and believing thats all there is to life. if they meet someone who genuinely cares about them and appreciates them and an affair starts, thats probably no surprise. and is it wrong? in a moral sense yes, but if it gives that person the courage to get out of the situation they are in - whether or not they end up with the OM/OW, then i cant see that as a bad thing.

as for being honest and ending it before the affair, if your self esteem is sufficiently low through years of abuse quite possibly you may feel unable to do so.

there are many OW/OM for whom affairs are a challenge and a game. there are many spouses who roll from one meaningless affair to the next. equally there are many 'wronged' spouses who are far from blameless. not every case is black and white and imo the person having the affair is often not the only one 'in the wrong'.

littlewoman · 06/05/2008 21:06

In my experience, my husband was not treated like dirt. He knew I adored him, and that's why he walked all over me with his affairs and his abuse.

I don't feel very sorry for him, or feel that he was terribly wronged. I already genuinely cared for him, he did not care for me because he wanted to be rich and famous and I am totally non-materialistic. The OW works for a TV company.

A lot of other people I know have been treated similarly by an arrogant man who thought he was better than his wife. My SIL did the same to my brother, she was also an arrogant woman who thought she had married beneath her.

mixformax · 06/05/2008 21:28

Wow, this threads has gone all around the houses Interesting reading the posts from people who have family (mums?) who have been the OW. And seeing that many of the early outspoken ones admit to having once been an OW

So, bringing it back to MacDoodle's original post a little - what would all you (presumably) women (altho there are a few men on here) call the man who chased/shagged the married woman with children?

I'd be interested to see the feminist view (and No, I am not a bloke!)

ginnedup · 06/05/2008 21:33

Well said Little Woman. There is no social conscience any more. The attitude to a lot of things now is "I want that so I'll have it" whether its people or things, if you can't afford it - put it on plastic, if he's married, go for it anyway.
As for people in abusive/controlling relationships, if meeting someone else gives them the courage to get out thats great, but they can still end it first and know that they have got something good to go to.

dittany · 06/05/2008 21:36

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YouNeverKnow · 06/05/2008 21:41

i find that very offensive. i am certainly not a slapper however by other peoples views i suppose i was the ow.....

my dh was in a a broken down marraige and his ex wife was seeing her best friend (male!)

they were still living together when i got with my dh and shortly after they divorced. dh and i fell pg shortly after and the rest is history. dh's ex wife moved in and brought a hose with her bf.

so am i slapper??

ginnedup · 06/05/2008 22:11

No, because the marriage was broken down. Your H didn't lie about the state of his marriage and you didn't deliberately set out to split them up. If his wife was seeing someone else then she obviously knew they'd reached the end of the road.
We are talking about women who go after married men knowing that they have children and deliberately break it up or men who lie about the state of their marriage to get women into bed.
That doesn't apply to you - so nobody is calling you a slapper

wannaBe · 06/05/2008 22:17

I really think that this isn?t black and white.

I think that women often fall for the ?my wife doesn?t understand me? clichet because although it?s often just a clichet, sometimes it?s true, and so for all women they want it to be the one for whom it?s true, so they can be the one to save him from his unhappy marriage. And sometimes it?s true.

Mil has an aunt who was in a relationship with a married man for 40 years. She had a child by him, something which was deeply frowned on in those days, but she proceeded to raise her child as a single parent, with this man coming to see her once a week. But his wife was seriously unhinged. She had always told him that if he ever dared to leave her she would kill herself and his children, she told mil?s aunt this and she also told her children when they were old enough . So they carried on seeing each other in secret. She was definitely the other woman, he would go away with his family once a year and she had no idea where he was. If anything had ever happened to him she would never have known. When his wife died they did not move in together or anything like that, they?d become so used to living apart that that?s how it always stayed really. But they stayed together and a few years later he developed cancer and sadly died. But before he did he asked his children to look after her. They are all very close now, despite the resentment they obviously (and understandably) had for her when they were growing up. She could have had so much more out of her life. She could have moved on and possibly found happiness with someone else, but she truly and deeply loved this man, she is by no means a slapper.

Also a friend?s sil has had several affairs, but she has told her dh that if he ever leaves her he will never see his daughter again, and she is enough of a psycho that she would follow that one through. So if he happened to meet someone else would that make him cheating scum? I don?t think so.

Also, while I think that it?s a noble centiment to say ?leave one relationship before embarking on another? how realistic is that? If a man (or woman) falls in love with someone else and leaves their partner to be with that someone, will it hurt that partner any less being told that nothing had actually happened between them? Or should the one who is leaving make up some reason why he is leaving and then (per chance) meet someone new? oh, a year down the line? In which case they are still perpetuating a lie, so is the betrayal any less?

While I detest cheating of any kind, and would never want to put my dh through that, I do think that the ?all men are bastards/all ow?s are slappers? ideal is a little too simplistic.

mixformax · 06/05/2008 22:26

Yes, ginned up (what a name! ) I think thats what many people on this thread have missed, or moved away from - MacD posted about an OW who was definitely out to destruct.

"Knowing", "deliberately" and "lie" are the key words here

imo, slapper applies to both parties...