Partner is hesitant about marriage

[Caiti93]

So my partner and I have been together for 7.5 years. We have a 3yo and a 1yo together and have lived together for 5 years. We’ve spoken about getting married before and he’s always said he wants to one day in the future as a celebration of our love, not a promise now that we may end up breaking. I was fine with not getting married, until we had our second child. Both kids have his name because it was just what we did and I didn’t mind as I assumed we’d be married one day.

I’m Australian and was in the UK on an ancestry visa when we met. He’s a British citizen, so are both our boys by descent. We moved to Aus 4 years ago to have kids but it’s not worked out for his career so we are planning to move back to the UK as he is the sole earner while I’m at home with the kids while they’re young. I will get the ancestry visa again as it’s more straightforward than a spousal visa.

However, the other day I realised that whilst on this visa I will have no access to public funds. This was fine whilst I was there before because I could work full time, but now I’m not working it worries me. When I do end up working again it’ll be part time around kids and I’ll have had a chunk out of my career so my earning potential will be lower. I don’t have a degree and am already 3 years out of the workforce.

Anyway, I approached him and said how if we move over and I’m on a visa and anything happens - he dies, we split, gets sick, anything - then I’m kinda screwed. I’m not protected. We love each other and of course I want that to be our reason, but I also need some legal protection. For 5-6 years I’ll be reliant on him with no access to public funds or any family help as all my family is in Aus.

He agreed and said when we get to the UK we can start thinking about it as he does want to marry but not yet and his reasoning is because he doesn’t want to do what people tell him he should be doing and he doesn’t want the fuss of a big day and it’s all stupid bureaucratic bullshit.

So now I’m a bit unsure. If I go ahead with the visa and move I am just hoping that he doesn’t change his mind, or else I’m stuck there. If I tell him I won’t leave the country because I have more protection and support here, then I feel like I’m trapping him here. It’s the most unromantic way I ever wanted this to happen. I want to share my kids name and I want legal and financial protections should anything go wrong while I’m living in a foreign country.

I don’t know what to do. We can elope and do the legal stuff quickly and delay our trip by maybe a month, then do a celebration in the future if we want to. But he feels rushed and like it’s all too much as I (note I, not he) am doing passports and all the other paperwork and packing and visa etc for the move. To me it’s just one extra thing, but he brushed me off when I suggested doing it sooner (I have to renew my passport in 12 months anyway so it makes sense to me to just do everything in Aus now before we move because doing it later will be a faff and more money).

Anyway, sorry for the super long post. I’m a bit lost and I feel I can’t talk to anyone about this. I’m worried I’m being unreasonable and asking too much, but also that I’d be stupid for entering a risky visa situation.

Small talk I witnessed between two men at work:
-John, I heard you had a baby recently, congratulations. I didn't know you are married!
-Thanks, but I'm not married. Haven't gone that crazy yet!
(Both men laugh obnoxiously.)
Argh.
OP don't move to the UK without marriage. No matter what he says marriage does matter enough to him that he doesn't want to do it with you. If it's just annoying paperwork why doesn't he do it amongst all other annoying work you need to do for the move? He doesn't care about your security and that's the end of it.

If he wanted to marry you he would have by now. Don't move back.

Wow, what is wrong with men 🤦🏻‍♀️
There’s obviously more to it for him because we are already doing so much paperwork (passports for the kids - Aus and UK, my visa, the flights, the shipping, then all the stuff when we arrive - find a new house and where that’s gonna be, lots of paperwork and research), and he’s hardly doing any of it. I’ve done the majority if not all so far. All he has to do is show up so there’s obviously something else and if everyone else here is right then it’s the fact that he doesn’t want to marry me.

This. Do not move unless you are married. This does really suck but by keeping the peace you're putting your self at risk. He has to feel uncomfortable here and you need to protect yourself and your family. Please do not move without a marriage certificate.

Something to bear in mind is that if there is evidence of a permanent move (like buying a house in the UK), the children’s habitual place of residence changes the minute you step off the plane. There is no minimum period if you change your mind and want to leave. I’ve seen 6 months thrown about on other threads. This is a (dangerous) myth.

My parents dated for a year before they got married. They didn’t live together because mom’s family was very Catholic. My sister and her now-husband lived together for maybe 2.5-3 years until they were done with their education (one has a masters and one is a lawyer) then got married.

Seven-plus years and two kids seems like he’s not that into you. He doesn’t care about being your legal next of kin, making healthcare decisions for you if something went wrong during delivery, he wants to be able to cut and run. I’m so sorry but you are way more into him than he is into you, or he’d have married you already. He literally told you he won’t make that promise to you because he’s already pretty sure he’s going to break it.

If you want to move to the UK , do it. But I’m not sure him wanting to go is enough of a reason for not just you but uprooting 2 kids. These are teenaged level reasons to not make a commitment but he’s a father of two he needs to grow up like yesterday. Also do you have a credible reason to believe his career will improve there? Is it a market problem or is it a his work ethic problem?

Exactly this. Just tell him you're too scared to apply for your visa without a marriage certificate and that you couldn't put yourself in such a vulnerable position with someone who won't have a quick ceremony to ensure your safety. You have the power now, do not give it up, do not believe he'll do it once you move. Dig your heels in. If he leaves you, you know you're proven right and in a better situation in your safe country. It's a no brainier that he marries you. Do not gaslight him into thinking anything else. Romantic gestures were for before children, practical safe measures to protect the family he already has show his ongoing honour and commitment to you and his children. Talk to a lawyer and get very clear on your position.

He's not working, you're the SAHP, but you're doing all the work of setting up the move? What is he actually doing?!

You will compound your poor decisions with a worse one if you move to UK without marriage at all with a man like this.

Is he much older than you? You seem young - no degree - and you mention he'd have 20 years work experience thus get better paid than you.

He’s self employed but only has a couple clients now, he didn’t for months. He’s also a course creator and that’s his side hustle that’s doing well so he spends a lot of time working on that, like a full time job. It just takes longer to make money but it’s paying our rent so that’s good at least. I’m 30, so depends what you consider young! I went traveling instead of uni. He’s 40. He’s always worked in his field whereas I had only just started with a serious role before we moved then had kids. So gave that up for a while

I am totally get your concern OP. Men like this really annoy me, if you are good enough to bear his children, you are good enough to marry. The excuses will keep coming. No move unless you are married. Good luck OP.

Have a chat with him, express your concerns and see his reaction.

Protect yourself OP and do listen to the unbiased advice left by experienced mumsneters.

ugh..I knew he would be older.

Is he used to having his own way? You said you’ve been together 7 years so you’d have been around only 23 and he would’ve been 33 when he got with you?

I don’t know the dynamics of your relationship but I wonder if that’s part of the appeal for him? A younger woman who wouldn’t demand marriage (tbf not that all women his own age would) is probably less experienced in relationships and lets him call the shot.

So it’s ok for you to pause your career when you hadn’t even established it properly, to look after the kids while he’s tonnes of experience and gets to focus on his career. And yet he is dragging his feet on giving you the security you need.

If this is the first time you’ve disagreed with something major he may not be used to it because it sounds like he has been having his cake and eating it all along.

It’s actually embarrassing that he is 40 with two kids but is still thinking about getting married.

I wish younger woman would realise there’s little benefit being with an older man if they’re no more mature than the men their own age.

Bc I was taught that marriages fail and are a waste of time and money and aren’t important, so didn’t care before.

If a relationship fails and the more vulnerable party is protected when the legal contract kicks in then it hasn't failed. The marriage contract did its job.

I wouldn't commit to such a move without him committing to marriage, extracting his digit and just doing it before you leave Australia. Marriage is a legal contract above all, not 'a celebration of love '. No marriage, no move.

He’s the youngest and only son, if that answers your first question. Honestly we’ve butt heads on a few things and this is not the first disagreement or even close to being the best our relationship has ever been so I am seriously concerned now. Nobody here even knows the half of the stuff we’ve discussed or argued about and yet there’s still this advice. I am too trusting and hopeful, but it’s not just me to worry about and make stupid decisions for anymore.
Yes part of the appeal is how undemanding I was and more than once lately I’ve been called a nag. Somehow I still live him, but I need to love myself too and be smarter about this cause I can see regret in my future if I mess this up

Sorry but you’d be an absolute idiot to move to Uk as you have no protection at all. And once you’re there, you probably could never come bank to Oz. You’re leaving yourself so exposed. I’d say that if he’s not sure now, he never will be. Let him move back but you stay with kids.

I'm like you and have moved internationally (in the process of going the other way). My mantra to friends has been "no ring the no babies". Do not move one inch out of Australia without being married and having the correct visa. If your relationship breaks down then you will be getting deported faster than you will think possible.....and potentially minus your kids. Don't reply on the rubbish about the country never deporting people...that relates to asylum seekers that have all dumped their identities to hide economic migration.

No recourse to public funds has many wide reaching consequences including non emergency healthcare.

I suggest you have a serious discussion with him and if he doesn't want to be married then he can leave but he can't move the children back to the U.K. easily without you due to international agreements.

If he doesn't want to get married then I suggest you reflect on the relationship

I am seriously reflecting on the relationship. This isn’t the first bug and I’m really thinking over everything from the last 7 years. The kids only have Aussie passports now so I may just not get their British ones then any trips there will be a visit only, not to stay.

I sent him a message to really lay it all out so he can read over it while he works. He hasn’t read it. He acknowledged it and said he would but he hasn’t read it yet. He is however suddenly helpful with dinner and kids tonight. Always happens when he knows I’m mad. But the fact that I had to explain it all and “plead my case” really upsets me because I shouldn’t have to do that with someone who is not only meant to love me but is also asking me to move countries and has birthed and raised his children. I’m seriously pissed and may go stay with my mum for a few days to consider my situation.

Marriage isn’t for religion, it’s far more than just a piece of paper..
It protects women ( and their children) and gives rights the unmarried don’t have.
It’s astonishing more women don’t realise that.

If a man is tardy about marriage, you can be certain he knows the protection it gives!

I know that now but I was naive. He’s always said we will marry one day and he wants to, but later into our relationship and I didn’t mind either way so didn’t bother me. But now I’ve learned more and it does bother me and it is important. Lesson learned

DO NOT MOVE.

DON'T DO IT.

His excuses are beyond pathetic. Getting married is 20 minutes and signing some paperwork. He doesn't want to do it because he doesn't want to do it - nothing more than that. But he knows it matters to you which is why he dangles the carrot of "someday".

After 7 years and 2 kids, what's he waiting for? He doesn't want to be told what to do - grow the fuck up. I'm embarrassed for him that he thinks that's a credible excuse. What's next? Throwing himself on the floor for a toddler style tantrum?

Tell him you are pausing the move because the visa situation is too high risk for you. And that you totally understand that he doesn't want to be pressured - but neither do you, so it's best you all stay put. Tell him that the kids surnames need to be hyphenated to include yours, as you'd agreed to give them his name on the basis you'd be married. His reaction to these things will tell you everything. My guess is - in no particular order -

It's "just" a piece of paper.
(it's really not, and he knows this, but if he truly believes it is just paper, then why not go and do it anyway as it's important to you?).

We don't need the additional stress and bureaucracy.
(but it's apparently fine for you to go through the additional hoops for visas, and the stress of knowing that your leave to remain in the UK is dependent on him. Plus it's far more stressful and bureaucratic to organise an international house move, but he seems up for that, so...?)

We'll get married eventually, but not now as I'm not doing it to order, I'll do it when I'm ready.
(Mate, you're 40, you have 2 kids, and you've been together for 7 years. Shit or get off the pot).

I'm not changing the kids' surnames, they're my kids.
(they are your children as well, why is it OK for you to have a different name to them when you literally carried and birthed them? And if the agreement was that you'd marry and have the same name as them eventually, then the deal has changed, as here you are 7 years later still not married, so the kids' surnames need to change.)

He's not going to marry you, why would he?
As the only earner, he'd just have to give you money if you split. Right now he wouldn't have to give you shit, he can just walk away. All the advantages of marriage are advantages to you, there are none for him.
This is why you should marry before children, when things are more equal, or alternatively you should continue to be financially independent after children.

Don't move unless you are married.
If he won't marry you then find a job and share childcare costs.

Look: this man is an absolute asshole. He knows exactly how vulnerable you are financially and socially—that is why he targeted you in the first place. Your childhood trauma of divorce, indifferent family, lack of uni education/work opportunities, low self esteem, all made you malleable snd vulnerable to an absolute load of horseshit.

You had two children with this asshole and stopped supporting yourself to nanny them with zero protection. Stop. STOP. ✋ being so foolish and blinded by his obvious lies. He won’t do anything to secure your rights and safety or that obligates him to support you. None of his excuses even pretend to be reasonable. He doesn’t like to do what people tell him to do? Boo fucking hoo.

Do you know who makes excuses like that? Patently selfish, pointlessly besides the point arguments about their feelings which have nothing to fo with your situation? Sociopaths and narcissists. Trump in short.

Try it out yourself—would you ever respond to a joint family problem by simply explaining that you prefer not to engage in a solution because you just aren’t built that way? Chilld needs surgery? No, I, his mother, don’t like to do things other people tell me to do?

Holy shit this guy thinks you are a defenseless idiot. Stop letting him treat you like one.

He really sounds seriously shit to be honest.

Do you REALLY want to uproot and come to a rainy overcrowded Country far from your parents ( if they are still alive) to support a tardy git?

He sounds lazy as fuck.

If he can’t get a job in prosperous Australia, how the hell does he think he can get one in U.K.?

Is he homesick?

I know a British man ( now elderly ) who emigrated from U.K. with his U.K. wife and kids in the late 1970’s

He missed U.K. so much , but he was ( is) an antiques dealer- and he divorced and came back here- but visits his now grown kids annually
( he goes in January) ( Perth) .

Whether married or not, I don’t think you should go. It seems all for his benefit and to your detriment.

Let him go if he wants. You stay where you are with the kids.